Trip report around Europe, IFR

[Peter]

The Americans reading this

http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/odessa/

might well be grateful for the wonderful system they have :)

[Ric]

Post by Peter
The Americans reading this
http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/odessa/
might well be grateful for the wonderful system they have :)

I fly an IFR DA42 around Europe. I agree that using JetA1 is a big advantage
as you can refuel anywhere. I disagree with your comments about Italy - I
always receive excellent service wherever I go.

Finally, would you really find as interesting a trip of that length around
the USA, in terms of variety of scenery, food, culture?

[Stefan]

Post by Ric
I fly an IFR DA42 around Europe. I agree that using JetA1 is a big
advantage as you can refuel anywhere. I disagree with your comments
about Italy - I always receive excellent service wherever I go.

I second that. When entering Italy (and not only Italy, for that matter)
from a non-Schengen state, then your first landing must be at an airport
with customs, period. No difference who you are or why you're landing
there. It's all clearly written in the regulations. So don't blame the
Padova airport for acting legally. Rather blame yourself for not reading
the airport information and/or not preparing an alternate.

And yes, Italy can be complicated. It usually is also very friendly. But
then, why are you travelling at all when you don't accept different
cultures?

Stefan

[Peter]

I take it you two both speak Italian?

[pietro]

Post by Peter
I take it you two both speak Italian?

It would be better to TAKE no notice of them. They're only jealous.

Super trip report. Thanks and I look forward to the next one.

P.

[Ric]

Post by Peter
I take it you two both speak Italian?

Yes, I do actually. But what are you suggesting?

If you think that the whole world should bow down to you because you only
speak english, then you probably got the treatment you deserve.

[John Godwin]

Post by Ric
If you think that the whole world should bow down to you because
you only speak english, then you probably got the treatment you
deserve.

<http://www.flightspeak.co.uk/ICAO_English.htm>


--

[Ric]

Post by John Godwin
<http://www.flightspeak.co.uk/ICAO_English.htm>

The new ICAO guidelines are very welcome, but refer to controllers
controlling and pilots flying in controlled airspace. It does not apply to
local VFR pilots bumbling around their local uncontrolled aerodrome and in
D. E or F airspace, or the ground handling and refuelling staff, or the
sandwich lady - they will all continue to speak their local language as that
is all they know. If you turn up speaking only English, you will justifiably
be treated with the same bemused indifference or at worst hostility as (for
example) a Turk who turns up in a Rotherham pub and orders a beer in
Turkish.

[Peter]

Post by Ric
The new ICAO guidelines are very welcome, but refer to controllers
controlling and pilots flying in controlled airspace. It does not apply to
local VFR pilots bumbling around their local uncontrolled aerodrome and in
D. E or F airspace, or the ground handling and refuelling staff, or the
sandwich lady - they will all continue to speak their local language as that
is all they know. If you turn up speaking only English, you will justifiably
be treated with the same bemused indifference or at worst hostility as (for
example) a Turk who turns up in a Rotherham pub and orders a beer in
Turkish.

Obviously this is the case; is anybody arguing otherwise? Only
*international* airport controllers (note: not just those working in
controlled airspace) need to speak English.

It doesn't really matter because one has to fly to an international
airport anyway, initially, to clear Customs.

The pilot can then choose whether to fly internally or not. If he
wishes to fly internally, to small airports, he needs to speak the
local language.

I am glad that ATCO proficiency in English might improve, because in
some parts of Europe (further south) it can be pretty terrible, and
it's clear the ATCO only knows the few stock phrases like "cleared
to". And very often not even that; some of the phraseology is pretty
dodgy. Like "cleared for departure" instead of "cleared for takeoff".

[Ric]

Post by Peter
The pilot can then choose whether to fly internally or not. If he
wishes to fly internally, to small airports, he needs to speak the
local language.

Exactly - though I regularly come across English-only pilots flying into
uncontrolled airfields, much to the confusion of local pilots. Once I
witnessed in France an English lady pilot calling on final against the
active runway while a local pilot was announcing his departure. There are
too many incidents like this - I hope that when the new ICAO language rules
are implemented the situation will be clearer - ie level 4 or above English
in order to fly internationally IFR and in controlled airspace, and level 4
or above in the local language in order to fly in uncontrolled airspace.

[Peter]

Post by Stefan
then your first landing must be at an airport
with customs, period.

Padova lists CUSTOMS in the published airport data. I have been there
before. This is standard.

They refused the landing because they wanted a certain prior
notification for CUSTOMS. However, they could have refused the flight
plan. They could also have answered the phone.

Post by Stefan
But
then, why are you travelling at all when you don't accept different
cultures?

Calling Treviso's behaviour a "different culture" is an interesting
perspective :)

Many other pilots have found this sort of thing in Italy. Avgas
availability varies from published data, with "aeroclub use only" not
unusual. It's a different culture, indeed.

[Stefan]

First: I only speak very little and very poorly Italian. And yes, flying
privately in Italy can be complicated. Even more so if you fly VFR only,
as I do. And yes, landing fees are usually pretty high. And yes, many
things take a little longer in Italy...

Post by Peter
Padova lists CUSTOMS in the published airport data. I have been there
before. This is standard.
They refused the landing because they wanted a certain prior
notification for CUSTOMS.

According to the AIP, they even require 3 Hours prior notice.

From the Italian AIP, AGA 3-73.1:

LIPU Padova
3 OPERATIONAL HOURS
...
2 Customs and immigration Available as follows:
a) Monday to Friday 3 HR PN (+ FPL)
b) Saturday and Sunday PN within Friday at 1100 (1000) (+ FPL)

Post by Peter
However, they could have refused the flight plan.

No, they could not. The airport does not accept or refuse a flight plan,
they are just notified. And those who do accept or refuse a flight plan
do not ask whether you have done your homework.

Post by Peter
They could also have answered the phone.

Did you call during their published operational hours?

Post by Peter
Many other pilots have found this sort of thing in Italy. Avgas
availability varies from published data, with "aeroclub use only" not
unusual. It's a different culture, indeed.

Yes, getting avgas can be a challenge.

The big airports simply don't have avgas. (BTW: Venezia Tessera doesn't
have avgas, either.)

The small airfields usually do have avgas, *but* they are mostly run by
the aeroclub. Now the aeroclub is *not* allowed to sell avgas to
non-members, for two reasons: As a non-profit organisation they musn't
do business, and in Italy you need a special licence to sell gas, and
getting that licence is pretty involved. So it is not that they would
not want to sell it to you, it's that they simply must not.

Now how should you get avgas, if they either don't have it or are not
allowed to sell it? As I said, it can be a challenge. But if you are
really stranded somewhere, they usually will help you and - illegally -
sell you some gaz as long as everything is kept informal. Of course this
procedure is time consuming and you must find the correct tone (and the
correct people) to ask. That's Italy.


Call me a masochist or maybe just romantic, but I like it...

Stefan

[Peter]

Post by Stefan
Did you call during their published operational hours?

Yes.

It's a small office, maybe there was nob0dy there. But then they can't
expect PNR by telephone, can they?

Post by Stefan

Post by Peter
Many other pilots have found this sort of thing in Italy. Avgas
availability varies from published data, with "aeroclub use only" not
unusual. It's a different culture, indeed.

Yes, getting avgas can be a challenge.
The big airports simply don't have avgas. (BTW: Venezia Tessera doesn't
have avgas, either.)

Interesting, because Venice offered me Tessera or Treviso, both of
them being airfields "with avgas".

Your explanation of Italian aeroclubs is one I heard before; however I
suspect it applies mainly to NON-international Italian airports. I
don't speak Italian so I fly only to international airports.

The problem is when say Jeppview (whose data comes from the AIP) says
the airfield has avgas. What does this mean? It must come from the AIP
- I know for a fact that Jepp don't ask the airfield itself.

Normally, when planning these long trips, I fax everybody well in
advance (as described in the writeup). Often the published fax # is
duff, so it takes a while to discover a working # (on which somebody
can read in English) and get a reply. With Greece (Hania) this can
take 2 weeks. This time, all I had time for (due to the other stuff
going on) was to consult the Jepp data, which comes from the AIP.

There are a couple of other angles:

Refuelling should not need to clear Customs. Airlines refuel all the
time, remaining airside.

The filing of an ICAO flight plan should constitute notice of the
incoming flight. This is how it normally works in the UK, for Customs,
at airfields where Customs is notified as PNR. Are you saying the PNR
must be met with a phone call or a fax?

What I don't know is exactly when homebriefing.com transmitted the
flight plan to Padova. It should have been sent the night before, so a
3hr notice would have easily been met.

Another point is whether an international airport like Padova has a
valid "airside". Obviously it must when Customs is present, and if
Customs is PNR??? Let's say somebody gave PNR and landed at 0900. I
then land at 0905. Does the airfield no longer have a valid "airside"
because I did not give PNR? I don't think so. So refuelling-only
should always be OK.

The problem does arise if one has to leave airside to pay, then
"somebody" has to clear Customs. I have learnt that that "somebody"
cannot be a passenger.... well you can, but it causes all sorts of
problems. The pilot has to do it. But not at Padova, where the payment
office exits out to the apron.

[Stefan]

Post by Peter
The problem is when say Jeppview (whose data comes from the AIP) says
the airfield has avgas. What does this mean?

It means that Jepp is inaccurate.

And for all the other stuff: Of course you're correct. But this is
Italy. I've learnt to deal with it on my first flight through that
country. I could tell you stories... And I don't even claim that they
wouldn't turn me angry sometimes. But hey, their food is marvelous!

Stefan

[Peter]

Post by Stefan
But hey, their food is marvelous!

As good as Greek? :) I like both actually.

[Richard Herring]

Post by Peter
The filing of an ICAO flight plan should constitute notice of the
incoming flight. This is how it normally works in the UK, for Customs,
at airfields where Customs is notified as PNR.

?

Last time I looked, inbound to the UK you have to file a GENDEC
separately with Customs _and_ Immigration (_and_ the Special Branch,
when flying in the Common Area) and it's completely unrelated to the
flight plan.

[Peter]

Post by Richard Herring
Last time I looked, inbound to the UK you have to file a GENDEC
separately with Customs _and_ Immigration (_and_ the Special Branch,
when flying in the Common Area) and it's completely unrelated to the
flight plan.

Indeed; the UK is unusual in using such a form submission, which also
does not require any confirmation of receipt.

[pietro]

And yes, Italy can be complicated. It usually is also very friendly. But

Post by Stefan
then, why are you travelling at all when you don't accept different
cultures?
Stefan

Sali Stefan. Warum tues so ecklig?

Gift und Galle und Besserwisserei bringt nüt!

P

[Boeing NNTP News Access]

Post by Peter
The Americans reading this
http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/odessa/
might well be grateful for the wonderful system they have :)

Reading that does indeed make me grateful. While I am IFR
rated, I had the pleasure of flying VFR across most of the USA this
past summer (26+ hours tach time) while saying precious little to ATC
(talked to the tower at Oshkosh and to the tower in Missoula,
Montana on the way home).

Enjoyed the food, people & places along the way, and everyone spoke
the same language (well, most everyone anyway....). Only had to set
down once for about 1/2 an hour for weather (we were a flight of three
and one of the guys had a Garmin 496 with XM weather).

Thanks for posting the trip report.

Bela P. Havasreti

[Thomas Borchert]

Boeing,

Post by Boeing NNTP News Access
While I am IFR
rated, I had the pleasure of flying VFR across most of the USA

While I value Peter's opinions and his trip reports immensely, let it
be said that I have travelled Europe VFR extensively. It's no big deal
at all in my experience, with regard to airspace and regulation. I hold
an IR as well, and the amount of preparation and paperwork/software
required is very similar IFR and VFR.

[Peter]

Post by Thomas Borchert
While I value Peter's opinions and his trip reports immensely, let it
be said that I have travelled Europe VFR extensively. It's no big deal
at all in my experience, with regard to airspace and regulation. I hold
an IR as well, and the amount of preparation and paperwork/software
required is very similar IFR and VFR.

I agree Thomas, and before 2006 I was going to these place VFR too. I
got down to Crete, VFR, in 2004.

The technical flight planning is very similar (largely because under
VFR one tries to go VMC on top, rather than scud run) - what differs
is the enroute clearance, which is never present under VFR.

However, I would not do long legs under VFR again. The main annoying
thing is that one never quite knows what CAS transit one is going to
get, or not. The other one which has driven me around the bend on
occassions is the request to fly via some VRP which one cannot find on
the map. Even running the real Jepp VFR charts on a moving map GPS, I
have been caught out by aggressive requests to go to some point which
I couldn't find.

In the end, I would challenge anybody doing say a 700nm leg under VFR
to do it without entering cloud at some stage. I don't think I have
ever achieved that. Under IFR, no need to pretend there is a hole in
the clouds ;)

IFR is easier, apart from Eurocontrol route issues and the fact that
on some occassions a route will be flyable at low level but an airways
route would take one into icing etc.

[john hawkins]

Never having flown outside the US, all I know is what I've read. Most
recently the June AOPA Pilot article on Australia (a Cautionary Tale). I
was fascinated by Peters report.



One thing he did not mention was the cost and fees charged. Based on my
small knowledge I suspect they were considerable.



I shall never complain about the US system again. It appears that under
Bush the US is trying to follow the European model. We have got to stop
that movement. Maybe wider dissemination of articles such as Peter's will
help.



John H.

Post by Peter

Post by Thomas Borchert
While I value Peter's opinions and his trip reports immensely, let it
be said that I have travelled Europe VFR extensively. It's no big deal
at all in my experience, with regard to airspace and regulation. I hold
an IR as well, and the amount of preparation and paperwork/software
required is very similar IFR and VFR.

I agree Thomas, and before 2006 I was going to these place VFR too. I
got down to Crete, VFR, in 2004.
The technical flight planning is very similar (largely because under
VFR one tries to go VMC on top, rather than scud run) - what differs
is the enroute clearance, which is never present under VFR.
However, I would not do long legs under VFR again. The main annoying
thing is that one never quite knows what CAS transit one is going to
get, or not. The other one which has driven me around the bend on
occassions is the request to fly via some VRP which one cannot find on
the map. Even running the real Jepp VFR charts on a moving map GPS, I
have been caught out by aggressive requests to go to some point which
I couldn't find.
In the end, I would challenge anybody doing say a 700nm leg under VFR
to do it without entering cloud at some stage. I don't think I have
ever achieved that. Under IFR, no need to pretend there is a hole in
the clouds ;)
IFR is easier, apart from Eurocontrol route issues and the fact that
on some occassions a route will be flyable at low level but an airways
route would take one into icing etc.

[Airbus]

Post by john hawkins
Never having flown outside the US, all I know is what I've read. Most
recently the June AOPA Pilot article on Australia (a Cautionary Tale). I
was fascinated by Peters report.
One thing he did not mention was the cost and fees charged. Based on my
small knowledge I suspect they were considerable.
I shall never complain about the US system again. It appears that under
Bush the US is trying to follow the European model. We have got to stop
that movement. Maybe wider dissemination of articles such as Peter's will
help.

While understanding your sentiment, I believe that expression was something
of a catch-phrase, bandied about too easily. I don't see much "European" in
the proposed fee schedule in the US.

Also, Peter's article sounded to me like a pretty fun trip - certainly a
lot more flavorful than a trip from Sandusky OH to Mobile AL! You write as
though it were a disuasive piece. . .

[john hawkins]

I didn't think I sounded so negative about the trip. Not my kind of vacation
but I thought it was a great report. I'd like to go soaring in NZ myself

I am just so amazed at the bureaucracy. It's as though each state from OH to
AL was a separate country with different rules, customs, currentcy, and
language. I like to visit different cultures but NOT to deal with their
civil servants. Our own TSA and customs is bad enough

Peter thanks for adding the cost material.
[snip]

Post by Airbus
Also, Peter's article sounded to me like a pretty fun trip - certainly a
lot more flavorful than a trip from Sandusky OH to Mobile AL! You write as
though it were a disuasive piece. . .

[Airbus]

Post by john hawkins
I didn't think I sounded so negative about the trip. Not my kind of vacation
but I thought it was a great report. I'd like to go soaring in NZ myself
I am just so amazed at the bureaucracy. It's as though each state from OH to
AL was a separate country with different rules, customs, currentcy, and
language. I like to visit different cultures but NOT to deal with their
civil servants. Our own TSA and customs is bad enough

All of the above is true enough. But note that Peter flew in and out of the
Schengen area. Within the Schengen area there are no more customs requirements.
They did try - for a while it was still required for general aviation to
check in with customs at border crossings where everyone could go freely in
their car, but they finally git their butts whipped on that one, and now you
can go wherever you want with "well, almost" the same freedom as the US. If you
are going to cross a border leaving France, you must be on a VFR flight plan,
which obviously is not true in Sandusky OH.

[Peter]

Post by john hawkins
One thing he did not mention was the cost and fees charged. Based on my
small knowledge I suspect they were considerable.

Avgas, ~ US$1 per litre on the little Croatian islands, or
Jersey/Guernsey, 2x to 3x that elsewhere in Europe.

No airway fees if below 2000kg (I am 1400kg).

No great landing fees on this trip. The most we paid was about $50.

On previous trips, the highest was ~ $250 for Tirana (LATI), for a
landing + 2 nights parking.

The real hassle is endless bureaucracy, limited avgas availability,
and seemingly arbitrary airport rules/requirements.

IMHO, the former Iron Curtain countries (probably not Russia though)
are going to be "GA heaven" in years to come, while "old Europe"
declines as more airfields chuck out GA in their endless search for
revenue from cheap airline 737s.

The biggest costs on a trip like this can be the unplanned (unbooked)
hotels, which routinely rip off anybody just walking in. We were lucky
this time, paying a max of $60 per night in Croatia for a superb
hotel, but $300/night is not unknown.

[Airbus]

Post by Peter
However, I would not do long legs under VFR again. The main annoying
thing is that one never quite knows what CAS transit one is going to
get, or not.

The trip's route seems to specifically avoid all French airspace.
In France, the majority of airspace is reputed to be Class G, but the VFR
flyer only get sporadic patches of Class G, with all the special use
airspace taking up most of the map. Many of these "D" and "R" spaces may be
inactive at the moment you want to go through them, but you still spend as
much time checking, both in pre-flight and in the air, as any other part of
your preparation.

VFR on top gets tough because after 11,500ft the airspace is Class "D" and
VFR requests to enter are declined a good 80% of the time (my estimate).

Very nice trip report - enjoyed it.

[Peter]

Post by Airbus
The trip's route seems to specifically avoid all French airspace.

Not intentionally - I just flew the airway routings which were
acceptable to the anonymous Eurocontrol computer :)

Routings to the UK (from the SE) tend to go low (via France); routings
from the UK (to the SE) tend to go higher, via Germany. I flew back
via France, from EDNY, from about LUL onwards, IIRC.

Post by Airbus
In France, the majority of airspace is reputed to be Class G,

It's mostly Class E, to a base of FL105 I think, but there is plenty
of G too.

Great site -> http://flyinfrance.free.fr/

Post by Airbus
but the VFR
flyer only get sporadic patches of Class G, with all the special use
airspace taking up most of the map. Many of these "D" and "R" spaces may be
inactive at the moment you want to go through them, but you still spend as
much time checking, both in pre-flight and in the air, as any other part of
your preparation.

It's very true that VFR flying in France, at low levels, is a real
b*gger, due to the military airspace. There is a mention of a good
strategy at the end of this writeup

http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/leax2/index.html

The locals are OK with it because they know the area and they have all
the right phone numbers :)

Post by Airbus
VFR on top gets tough because after 11,500ft the airspace is Class "D" and
VFR requests to enter are declined a good 80% of the time (my estimate).

True! And I concur with the 80%.

[Thomas Borchert]

Airbus,

Post by Airbus
The trip's route seems to specifically avoid all French airspace.
In France, the majority of airspace is reputed to be Class G, but the VFR
flyer only get sporadic patches of Class G, with all the special use
airspace taking up most of the map. Many of these "D" and "R" spaces may be
inactive at the moment you want to go through them, but you still spend as
much time checking, both in pre-flight and in the air, as any other part of
your preparation.

Not my experience at all. Flying in France and getting through or around SUA
couldn't have been easier - and yes, the first look at those sectionals was
intimidating.

My feeling is it's more of a "Is the glass half full or half empty?" issue.

[Thomas Borchert]

Peter,

Post by Peter
The other one which has driven me around the bend on
occassions is the request to fly via some VRP which one cannot find on
the map.

The next-important word in radio work after "unable" is "unfamiliar".
Try it - those points become a non-issue in milliseconds.

Post by Peter
In the end, I would challenge anybody doing say a 700nm leg under VFR
to do it without entering cloud at some stage. I don't think I have
ever achieved that.

Then you shouldn't have gone. I didn't consider weather in this
discussion, which, in its requirements, is obviously different VFR and
IFR.

My whole point was that, for our American brethren, you tend to make it
sound VFR flying is next to impossible in Europe over any distance.
That's simply not at all true. You may not like to do it, but it is very
possible to do.

[Peter]

Post by Thomas Borchert
The next-important word in radio work after "unable" is "unfamiliar".
Try it - those points become a non-issue in milliseconds.

I've used that, and had the La Rochelle ATCO screaming at me "next
time you come to our city get yourself a map".

It generally works but I prefer to be prepared and to comply with what
might be the standard requirements.

Post by Thomas Borchert

Post by Peter
In the end, I would challenge anybody doing say a 700nm leg under VFR
to do it without entering cloud at some stage. I don't think I have
ever achieved that.

Then you shouldn't have gone. I didn't consider weather in this
discussion, which, in its requirements, is obviously different VFR and
IFR.
My whole point was that, for our American brethren, you tend to make it
sound VFR flying is next to impossible in Europe over any distance.
That's simply not at all true. You may not like to do it, but it is very
possible to do.

It's pretty damn difficult to fly from say the UK to say Prague
(700nm) VFR, given the terrain and cloudbases. It can be done but you
would have to pick the day very well.

I would bet that on 90% of *summer* days the trip would be cancelled
if flown below the cloud, outside CAS.

One would have better luck flying it VMC on top, which is how I would
do it, but that implies getting CAS transits, which one usually (but
not always) gets, and good weather at the destination. In this case, I
would bet on cancelling 75% of randomly planned flights.

Of course if you did it in say 3 legs, staying overnight as necessary,
the odds are much improved. In reality, very very few GA pilots fly
such long legs.

But none of this is relevant to Europe. Most of the USA can have just
as bad weather, and US VFR pilots have to be clear of cloud also. The
chief difference is that they can fly up to 17999ft, in general,
without needing a clearance. In Europe, one has to plan two routes:
one OCAS (assuming transits won't be granted) and the other being the
one you actually want. The other way is to plan just the latter and be
ready for a quick duck and dogleg :)

I don't think my VFR trip writeups are at all negative, but they were
done mostly VMC on top.