Discussion:
EASA proposal on booting out FAA licensed pilots from Europe
(too old to reply)
Peter
2008-06-20 07:48:13 UTC
Permalink
Actually it will hit all non-European licensed pilots but the American
licensed ones are the biggest affected category by far.

This is the 1st stage in the legislative process. Any resulting law is
due about 2012.

If you know anybody with an interest in this (anybody selling N-reg
planes into Europe, for example) please pass it on.

Main page

http://www.easa.europa.eu/ws_prod/r/r_npa.php

Specific pilot licensing document

http://www.easa.europa.eu/ws_prod/r/doc/NPA/NPA%202008-17b.pdf

and the relevant pages are 159-161 of the above PDF.
Stealth Pilot
2008-06-20 11:45:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter
Actually it will hit all non-European licensed pilots but the American
licensed ones are the biggest affected category by far.
This is the 1st stage in the legislative process. Any resulting law is
due about 2012.
If you know anybody with an interest in this (anybody selling N-reg
planes into Europe, for example) please pass it on.
Main page
http://www.easa.europa.eu/ws_prod/r/r_npa.php
Specific pilot licensing document
http://www.easa.europa.eu/ws_prod/r/doc/NPA/NPA%202008-17b.pdf
and the relevant pages are 159-161 of the above PDF.
I cant see your point.
the euros have always required you to have competent knowledge of
their airspace and be able to fly.

here in perth western australia we have a training school accredited
to issue JAR pilot licences and most seeking european employment go
out of training with the requisite european licence.

when in rome, roman rules apply.

if I wish to fly in the USA I can get an american licence after
passing the american requirements. or I can fly a certified australian
aircraft in american airspace on my australian licence under
reciprocal ICAO arrangements. not much difference.

thanks for the document pointer. it will make an interesting read.

Stealth Pilot
Michael
2008-06-20 14:54:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stealth Pilot
or I can fly a certified australian
aircraft in american airspace on my australian licence under
reciprocal ICAO arrangements.
Well, that's the point. If I read this correctly (Peter, please
clarify) you won't be able to do that anymore unless you meet their
requirements. For example, say you're a US private pilot flying an N-
registered aircraft over there, and you have an instrument rating and
some additional instrument time (say 80 hours total) - guess what, you
don't meet their requirements and can't fly IFR, ICAO or no ICAO. And
if you don't have 100 hours, you can't fly at all.

Michael
Peter
2008-06-20 18:47:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael
Post by Stealth Pilot
or I can fly a certified australian
aircraft in american airspace on my australian licence under
reciprocal ICAO arrangements.
Well, that's the point. If I read this correctly (Peter, please
clarify) you won't be able to do that anymore unless you meet their
requirements. For example, say you're a US private pilot flying an N-
registered aircraft over there, and you have an instrument rating and
some additional instrument time (say 80 hours total) - guess what, you
don't meet their requirements and can't fly IFR, ICAO or no ICAO. And
if you don't have 100 hours, you can't fly at all.
The exact way this would work is not yet known.

IMHO it is completely impossible for Europe to stop "true foreigners"
e.g. American pilots flying into European airspace on say an FAA
PPL/IR, in their N-reg planes. That would be a massive breach of ICAO
privileges.

Anyway, that is how airlines work!! This would stop airline operations
too, unless an exemption was made for authorised operators or whatever
(perhaps according to AOC holding).

Europe will *somehow* work this only against its own residents and how
this is determined is not yet known. This would be worked out by the
lawyers drafting the final regulation in years to come.

One hook could be EU citizenship. Another could be being an EU
taxpayer. The French currently use EU residence
http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/faa-nreg/DGAC-requirements.pdf
to prevent validating a foreign (e.g. FAA) license for F-reg planes
and since EASA is mostly French run, they may well take a leaf from
their own book. I simply don't know but obviously they would have to
do something like that.

Previous proposals to hit foreign (mainly American) planes based in
Europe were based around a long term parking limit on the airframe.
The last one, a British Govt proposal abandoned in 2006, would kick
them out after 90 days' parking. I know this sounds daft (what if the
plane cannot fly, due to some problem) but this one ran for about a
year before they dropped it. The French tried something similar a year
or two earlier and dropped that too, but a lot quicker.

This proposal is going after the pilots rather than the airframes and
is IMHO a lot more clever.

There would be obvious work-arounds for the most common scenarios e.g.
business jets. The owner would merely need to fire his EU-based crew
and replace them with non-residents or non-EU passport holders. Plenty
of such pilots are to be found in Europe.

BTW the earlier statement in this thread
Post by Michael
the euros have always required you to have competent knowledge of
their airspace and be able to fly.
is irrelevant (and formally untrue). Obviously a pilot needs to know
the airspace he is flying in. Flying an on FAA license is no different
to flying on a JAA license. Neither IR prepares you for e.g. the weird
and wonderful world of Eurocontrol airway routings

http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/ifr-flying/ifr-flying.html

:)
Dylan Smith
2008-06-23 09:01:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter
Europe will *somehow* work this only against its own residents and how
this is determined is not yet known. This would be worked out by the
lawyers drafting the final regulation in years to come.
Not necessarily; if people respond to this draft, then EASA have been
shown to listen. They listened over the Single Skies draft (which would
otherwise us having paying enroute charges, even for VFR without ever
contacting ATC once) and dropped those proposals, maintaining the status
quo (IFR airway charges for aircraft only >2 metric tonnes). EASA *do*
listen. *Please* write to them. I certainly will be. They are much
better at listening AND acting on what pilots tell them than our own CAA
(contrast the Single Skies consultation with the CAA's Mode-S
consultation).

This document is just a draft, and EASA may well change it if you point
out the various unintended consequences.

I'm certainly going to write because I want to see the status quo of day
VFR privileges being allowed to ICAO PPL holders in G-reg aircraft - or
better still, any European member registration.
--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Michael
2008-06-23 16:39:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter
IMHO it is completely impossible for Europe to stop "true foreigners"
e.g. American pilots flying into European airspace on say an FAA
PPL/IR, in their N-reg planes. That would be a massive breach of ICAO
privileges.
I suppose you're right. I was sort of hoping they would try it.
There would be massive backlash, and it would likely kill the entire
idea.
Post by Peter
Europe will *somehow* work this only against its own residents and how
this is determined is not yet known. This would be worked out by the
lawyers drafting the final regulation in years to come.
Well, that's something that they CAN do. ICAO permits any signatory
nation to reject the licensing of one of it's own nationals by another
signatory, for purposes of flight over its own territory. So
basically, if we treat EU as a nation (and that's not too far a
stretch, given the common citizenship and aviation licensing scheme -
I think it would certainly pass muster with ICAO) then they can do
whatever they want with regard to EU nationals flying under foreign-
issued credentials.

This would be legally easy, at least under US law - I don't know
enough about European law to be sure. You simply add the caveat that
this law is not applicable where it would violate EU's obligations
under the ICAO treaty, and you're off to the races. That would
automatically apply the law to EU nationals only.

They are likely to exempt scheduled air service flying under a
certificate (that's not what they're concerned about anyway) and just
apply the rules to those flying foreign-registered aircraft on foreign
licenses/certificates in non-airline contexts. That way there will
not be a significant constituency to complain - basically just the
people flying N-registered aircraft on US certificates in order to
escape the more onerous JAA provisions. Which, of course, is exactly
the point - they want you jumping through JAA hoops, not avoiding them
by getting a foreign certificate and aircraft.
Post by Peter
There would be obvious work-arounds for the most common scenarios e.g.
business jets. The owner would merely need to fire his EU-based crew
and replace them with non-residents or non-EU passport holders. Plenty
of such pilots are to be found in Europe.
And very easy to import them from the US anyway, given that the US
airlines are not exactly in great shape. So basically the bizjet
folks wouldn't care too much.

The real losers in this game are going to pilot-owners of N-registered
airplanes in the EU who went that route to avoid the extremely onerous
requirements of the JAA instrument rating.

Peter, I know you already know this, but for US pilots following
along, there is a fundamental difference in policy between the FAA and
JAA with regard to the instrument rating. In the US, the FAA would
basically like every private pilot who actually goes anywhere to have
an instrument rating. They make this as easy as possible - minimum
experience requirements (now down to just 50 hours XC time, and under
141 that's not even required), minimum instructional requirements (no
formal ground school required, and you can do as little as 15 hours
with a CFII and the rest with a safety pilot if you're up to it), and
minimum equipment requirements (any plane with a nav/com that has GS
and passes a pitot/static check can be used for the checkride). You
can literally go to a weekend class, pass your written on that basis,
and then take a 2 week vacation to someplace that specializes in
accelerated courses and come back with a rating.

Such a thing is totally impossible under the JAA rules. The
requirements are quire onerous, and not really feasible for a normal
person with a job and a family. That's why there are pilots who opt
to own N-registered planes and fly on US credentials. I have a
feeling the JAA wants them to go away - or at least not to have any
more of them being produced.
Post by Peter
Flying an on FAA license is no different
to flying on a JAA license. Neither IR prepares you for e.g. the weird
and wonderful world of Eurocontrol airway routings
Or East Coast (US) airway routings, for that matter.

Michael
Peter
2008-06-23 18:15:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael
Post by Peter
There would be obvious work-arounds for the most common scenarios e.g.
business jets. The owner would merely need to fire his EU-based crew
and replace them with non-residents or non-EU passport holders. Plenty
of such pilots are to be found in Europe.
And very easy to import them from the US anyway, given that the US
airlines are not exactly in great shape. So basically the bizjet
folks wouldn't care too much.
The real losers in this game are going to pilot-owners of N-registered
airplanes in the EU who went that route to avoid the extremely onerous
requirements of the JAA instrument rating.
Exactly right. However, this also means you are dealing with a small
group of pilots.

A lot of "EU business" is concerned with symbolism. Some of it is
basically good, like the consumer protection laws (unless you are a
manufacturer ;) ). But a lot of what we see here is an emotional
reaction to America, which many self proclaimed European intellectuals
regard as the land of John Wayne, and George Kennedy in the cowboy
"airline disaster" movies where he yanks the throttles of that 707
stuck in snow :) This means that N-reg business jets are much more
provocative than little N-reg piston planes. They are certainly far
more visible. As are all the other jets on Bermuda, Cayman, Aruba and
similar registers.

But they will not be able to hit the big jets with this attack on
pilot licenses. Most bizjet owners are not pilots; they have a rented
pilot, and he can come with any passport as required.

Most European N-reg owners (fixed wing) went N-reg for the IR. My
estimate of the total European population of instrument rated piston
owner/pilots is of the order of 1000-2000. This figure would stagger
an American but I am very sure of it. A part of the reason is the
geographical distribution: the UK is the biggest GA scene, Germany is
fairly big too, France well down, and the rest of Europe is barely
significant. By the time you get to Greece, the *total GA* number is
about 200, of which only a few are IRs. Last week I had lunch with a
bunch of Greek pilots and I am sure that between them they personally
knew every other private pilot in Greece.

Out of the say 2000 IR pilots, perhaps 1000 are FAA IRs. The trend is
much more FAA in recent years; most Euro IR holders I know did their
IR decades ago. In recent years, most of the growth has been under the
FAA system.

You can search the FAA pilot database for pilots with European
addresses with an FAA IR and a current FAA medical. Somebody I know
did this a while ago. And not all of them by any stretch will be
owners.

So, in the end, EASA will hit of the order of 1000 planes, most of
them light pistons.

Makes one wonder whether it is worth doing!

The upshot, if this really happens, is that pilots will either give up
flying, or do the Euro IR and transfer the plane to Euro-reg,
sometimes at a huge cost. In many cases it won't be economical e.g.
the 12 year engine life is enforced when moving *to* an EASA register
for the first time.

I am keeping my N-reg TB20 fairly original but many owners have
imported used direct from the USA and got a plane full of 337 mods.
These would all have to be recertified from scratch.
Post by Michael
Peter, I know you already know this, but for US pilots following
along, there is a fundamental difference in policy between the FAA and
JAA with regard to the instrument rating. In the US, the FAA would
basically like every private pilot who actually goes anywhere to have
an instrument rating. They make this as easy as possible - minimum
experience requirements (now down to just 50 hours XC time, and under
141 that's not even required), minimum instructional requirements (no
formal ground school required, and you can do as little as 15 hours
with a CFII and the rest with a safety pilot if you're up to it), and
minimum equipment requirements (any plane with a nav/com that has GS
and passes a pitot/static check can be used for the checkride). You
can literally go to a weekend class, pass your written on that basis,
and then take a 2 week vacation to someplace that specializes in
accelerated courses and come back with a rating.
Such a thing is totally impossible under the JAA rules. The
requirements are quire onerous, and not really feasible for a normal
person with a job and a family. That's why there are pilots who opt
to own N-registered planes and fly on US credentials. I have a
feeling the JAA wants them to go away - or at least not to have any
more of them being produced.
Post by Peter
Flying an on FAA license is no different
to flying on a JAA license. Neither IR prepares you for e.g. the weird
and wonderful world of Eurocontrol airway routings
Or East Coast (US) airway routings, for that matter.
My take on the JAA system, and the pre-JAA national IR systems before
JAA, is that they were designed for and run by airline pilots.

The key difference is that while the USA has a "private IR" system,
Europe historically does not. So while I did 1 exam for the FAA IR,
the JAA PPL/IR is approx 9 exams (some are doubled up so the exact #
can be argued) or 14 exams for the CPL/IR or ATPL. (The JAA ATPL is
unreachable for the private pilot because it requires c. 200hrs multi
crew cockpit time). These are packed with ATP (or jet type rating)
material e.g. the FMS in a 737.

Another key difference is attitude to individual rights. The FAA
trusts the pilot, hence the 6 month / 6 approaches rolling IR
currency. Europe assumes the pilot is forging his logbook, hence an IR
checkride every year.

There is a widely repeated story, which I am certain is correct, that
the European airlines have run the IR as the "last defence to stop
undesirable characters going to the airlines" (reportedly the actual
words of one CAA official.

With that sort of attitude, there is little hope!

OTOH, on the good side, EASA has brought some good things. There will
be a pan-European PPL, with a doctor-only medical (considerably more
lax than the FAA Class 3). Certification is being streamlined - though
they have a long way to go before they will accept FAA certification.

A lot of EASA attitude is reciprocity. I met one of their top
rulemaking officials earlier this year; he explained that if FAA would
accept EASA licenses then EASA would accept FAA licenses. The problem
is that the reciprocity game is being played across a wide range of
topics and EASA wants reciprocity across the board, which they are not
going to get.

My take on the next 4 years is that we have seen draconian proposals,
which were drawn up in a committee in Brussels (whose members signed
nondisclosure agreements to prevent leaks and the resulting direct
lobbying) and which have some difficult side effects. This is the
"stick".

The "carrot" is going to come out later, and will be tailored (by the
exceedingly politically competent committee animals in EASA) according
to how much sh*t hits the fan when the consultation starts on the
"stick".

Things have to be done in this order. First you hit people hard and
only then talk about concessions.

My guess is that the "carrot" will be some kind of acceptance of FAA
licensing and perhaps certification. Maybe on a one-off basis. They
have 4 years - plenty of time for the 1000 or so pilots to worry like
hell - to develop the "carrot".
Dylan Smith
2008-06-24 09:18:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter
Things have to be done in this order. First you hit people hard and
only then talk about concessions.
Sounds like a lesson learned from the UK government - start with
something totally unaaceptable (holding suspects for 90 days without
charge) and then scale it back until the acceptable level is found, with
those finding favour doing so 'because it's not as bad as 90 days'.

I heard on the Radio 4 news last night that some chief terrorism wonk
has now thought about 'light planes being used to drop terrorist bombs'
because there are so many light planes and 'they aren't regulated much'.
Sigh.
--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Peter
2008-06-24 13:56:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dylan Smith
I heard on the Radio 4 news last night that some chief terrorism wonk
has now thought about 'light planes being used to drop terrorist bombs'
because there are so many light planes and 'they aren't regulated much'.
Sigh.
Yes, this is on the front pages of the national papers today.
Specifically that 'light jets' could be used as bombs, but they are
having a go at all of GA. It is somebody called Lord Carlisle.

I hope this blows over, as it could be very damaging to GA. It's
nonsense - you can do far more damage with a truck loaded with the
stuff.

x----------x
Larry Dighera
2008-06-24 14:08:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter
Post by Dylan Smith
I heard on the Radio 4 news last night that some chief terrorism wonk
has now thought about 'light planes being used to drop terrorist bombs'
because there are so many light planes and 'they aren't regulated much'.
Sigh.
Yes, this is on the front pages of the national papers today.
Specifically that 'light jets' could be used as bombs, but they are
having a go at all of GA. It is somebody called Lord Carlisle.
It sounds like a poorly disguised airline industry attempt to inhibit
GA jets from skimming off the lucrative 1st/business class pax.
Peter Dohm
2008-06-24 14:44:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Dighera
Post by Peter
Post by Dylan Smith
I heard on the Radio 4 news last night that some chief terrorism wonk
has now thought about 'light planes being used to drop terrorist bombs'
because there are so many light planes and 'they aren't regulated much'.
Sigh.
Yes, this is on the front pages of the national papers today.
Specifically that 'light jets' could be used as bombs, but they are
having a go at all of GA. It is somebody called Lord Carlisle.
It sounds like a poorly disguised airline industry attempt to inhibit
GA jets from skimming off the lucrative 1st/business class pax.
Good heavens; where else might we have seen that...
Scott Moore
2008-06-25 19:38:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter
A lot of "EU business" is concerned with symbolism. Some of it is
basically good, like the consumer protection laws (unless you are a
manufacturer ;) ). But a lot of what we see here is an emotional
reaction to America, which many self proclaimed European intellectuals
regard as the land of John Wayne, and George Kennedy in the cowboy
"airline disaster" movies where he yanks the throttles of that 707
stuck in snow :) This means that N-reg business jets are much more
provocative than little N-reg piston planes. They are certainly far
more visible. As are all the other jets on Bermuda, Cayman, Aruba and
similar registers.
Asia looked at America, wanted to emulate our success, and saw it as
due to armies of entrepreneurs.

Europe looked at America, wanted to emulate our success, and saw it
as due to armies of regulators.
Orval Fairbairn
2008-06-25 20:54:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Moore
Post by Peter
A lot of "EU business" is concerned with symbolism. Some of it is
basically good, like the consumer protection laws (unless you are a
manufacturer ;) ). But a lot of what we see here is an emotional
reaction to America, which many self proclaimed European intellectuals
regard as the land of John Wayne, and George Kennedy in the cowboy
"airline disaster" movies where he yanks the throttles of that 707
stuck in snow :) This means that N-reg business jets are much more
provocative than little N-reg piston planes. They are certainly far
more visible. As are all the other jets on Bermuda, Cayman, Aruba and
similar registers.
Asia looked at America, wanted to emulate our success, and saw it as
due to armies of entrepreneurs.
Europe looked at America, wanted to emulate our success, and saw it
as due to armies of regulators.
That is the Socialist way!
--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.
Dylan Smith
2008-06-26 12:11:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Moore
Europe looked at America, wanted to emulate our success, and saw it
as due to armies of regulators.
No. Europe had the armies of regulators long before the United States
existed!
--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
unknown
2008-06-26 17:51:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dylan Smith
Post by Scott Moore
Europe looked at America, wanted to emulate our success, and saw it
as due to armies of regulators.
No. Europe had the armies of regulators long before the United States
existed!
If you're on the Isle of Man, can't you tell the JAA to go swivel?
You're outside the EU, after all!

Maybe there needs to be a Manx registry?
I'd be bringing this level of EU interference up with my MHK if I was
there.
--
"When once man has flown, he will walk the earth with his eyes turned skyward,
for where he has been, there he will long to return." -- Leonardo da Vinci.
Peter
2008-06-26 20:22:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
If you're on the Isle of Man, can't you tell the JAA to go swivel?
You're outside the EU, after all!
Maybe there needs to be a Manx registry?
I'd be bringing this level of EU interference up with my MHK if I was
there.
There is a Manx registry - M-reg. It was set up a few years ago and
funnily enough is run by a former UK CAA man.

I think pilots based on the IOM (M-reg aircraft) will probably be
protected from this attack. But much depends on the details - if as I
said earlier they hang it on EU citizenship that will be a problem
because most Manx residents have EU passports.

Unfortunately, to get an M registration you need to either live there

[ EGNS 261200Z 261321 23020KT 9999 FEW010 BKN030 TEMPO 1317 5000 RA
BKN008= ]

:)

or the plane has to be over 5700kg. Just like the other "jet"
registries Cayman, Bermuda, Aruba, etc.

What is an MHK?
unknown
2008-06-27 03:34:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter
Post by unknown
If you're on the Isle of Man, can't you tell the JAA to go swivel?
You're outside the EU, after all!
Maybe there needs to be a Manx registry?
I'd be bringing this level of EU interference up with my MHK if I was
there.
There is a Manx registry - M-reg. It was set up a few years ago and
funnily enough is run by a former UK CAA man.
I think pilots based on the IOM (M-reg aircraft) will probably be
protected from this attack. But much depends on the details - if as I
said earlier they hang it on EU citizenship that will be a problem
because most Manx residents have EU passports.
Unfortunately, to get an M registration you need to either live there
[ EGNS 261200Z 261321 23020KT 9999 FEW010 BKN030 TEMPO 1317 5000 RA
BKN008= ]
:)
or the plane has to be over 5700kg. Just like the other "jet"
registries Cayman, Bermuda, Aruba, etc.
What is an MHK?
Member of the House of Keys
--
"When once man has flown, he will walk the earth with his eyes turned skyward,
for where he has been, there he will long to return." -- Leonardo da Vinci.
Dylan Smith
2008-06-27 10:03:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter
Unfortunately, to get an M registration you need to either live there
[ EGNS 261200Z 261321 23020KT 9999 FEW010 BKN030 TEMPO 1317 5000 RA
BKN008= ]
I'd like to point out our summer so far has been significantly better
than the southern half of England, and this week has been the only wet
one in June (I ride my bike every day to work so I notice when it's wet
more than others). Our winter weather is significantly warmer than most
of the UK - I actually grow palm trees here (my medeterranean fan palm is
flowering at the moment). We also lack a lot of things that the UK has.
We don't have road rage. A traffic jam is any time you see a dozen cars
in a line. We have three breweries. Supermarkets haven't destroyed our
local shops (I have two butchers within walking distance selling beef
every bit as good as the best steaks I ever had living in Texas). All
the positives weigh the negative of a few more mm of rain per year a
hundred times over.

But then again, I probably shouldn't mention these things or we'll have
half of England wanting to move in. On second thoughts, please keep
spreading the myth that it rains all the time, the wind seldom falls
below 40 knots and we only eat kippers!

Incidentally, Ronaldsway gives a pretty false picture of our weather,
it's subject to frequent fog that most of the rest of the island does
not suffer from. They put the airport in a pretty silly place, quite
honestly, they should have used Jurby for the commercial airport.
Due to the geography, quite often there's four different weather
types simultaneously at any one time.
Post by Peter
What is an MHK?
Member of the House of Keys (member of parliament).

As for 'EU passport holders', the Isle of Man is not part of the EU.
Unless these EU regulations are going to affect EU citizens perhaps
living in the United States or other non EU state, I don't see how it's
going to affect Manx based pilots.
--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Peter
2008-06-27 17:58:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dylan Smith
Incidentally, Ronaldsway gives a pretty false picture of our weather,
I hope so

EGNS 271620Z 24013KT 5000 FEW002 BKN005 BKN012 14/14 Q1009 BECMG
SCT005=

:)
Post by Dylan Smith
it's subject to frequent fog that most of the rest of the island does
not suffer from. They put the airport in a pretty silly place, quite
honestly, they should have used Jurby for the commercial airport.
Due to the geography, quite often there's four different weather
types simultaneously at any one time.
Post by Peter
What is an MHK?
Member of the House of Keys (member of parliament).
As for 'EU passport holders', the Isle of Man is not part of the EU.
Unless these EU regulations are going to affect EU citizens perhaps
living in the United States or other non EU state, I don't see how it's
going to affect Manx based pilots.
Do you have a IOM passport in that case? Doesn't this mean that you
have to queue up in the non-EU passport queue everywhere you travel in
Europe, and need visas for so many countries?

Back to that EASA proposal, it isn't going to affect loads of pilots,
but the devil will be in the detail.

One should draw attention to it

http://www.easa.europa.eu/ws_prod/r/doc/NPA/NPA%202008-17b.pdf

(relevant pages are 159-161 of the above PDF)

in America, because the French "own" EASA, Airbus, and would like to
sell Airbuses in the USA :) The proposal is basically a finger-up
salute to the FAA and America.
Dylan Smith
2008-06-29 10:33:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter
Do you have a IOM passport in that case? Doesn't this mean that you
have to queue up in the non-EU passport queue everywhere you travel in
Europe, and need visas for so many countries?
Yes. But it carries the same weight as a British passport (i.e. works
for the visa waiver scheme in the US, etc.)

It'll be a very silly state of affairs if Manx residents aren't allowed
to fly aircraft registered in their own territory!
--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Peter
2008-06-30 07:07:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dylan Smith
It'll be a very silly state of affairs if Manx residents aren't allowed
to fly aircraft registered in their own territory!
It's not that, it's the license you are flying it under. The pilots of
Manx registered planes fly mostly under FAA licenses.
Dylan Smith
2008-06-30 12:40:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter
Post by Dylan Smith
It'll be a very silly state of affairs if Manx residents aren't allowed
to fly aircraft registered in their own territory!
It's not that, it's the license you are flying it under. The pilots of
Manx registered planes fly mostly under FAA licenses.
No, they fly under Manx licenses. These are issued on the strength of an
appropriate ICAO license which may be European, FAA, or any other ICAO
compliant license.
--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Orval Fairbairn
2008-06-30 15:32:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dylan Smith
Post by Peter
Post by Dylan Smith
It'll be a very silly state of affairs if Manx residents aren't allowed
to fly aircraft registered in their own territory!
It's not that, it's the license you are flying it under. The pilots of
Manx registered planes fly mostly under FAA licenses.
No, they fly under Manx licenses. These are issued on the strength of an
appropriate ICAO license which may be European, FAA, or any other ICAO
compliant license.
I am sure that they became more liberalized when Ian McFayden was
Governor General.
--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.
Peter
2008-06-30 21:18:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dylan Smith
No, they fly under Manx licenses. These are issued on the strength of an
appropriate ICAO license which may be European, FAA, or any other ICAO
compliant license.
In that case they should be OK, because they would be regarded as
foreign pilots under this EASA proposal.

I don't think EASA can stop foreign pilots flying into Europe.

Incidentally I have just heard that the page 159/160 proposal for
accepting an FAA PPL/IR (sitting four of the 14 JAA ATP exams, 1
checkride etc) is the same as the German "FAA IR to German IR"
conversion requirements pre-JAA. Interesting coincidence.
Peter
2008-07-19 20:54:24 UTC
Permalink
surely the way forward is to get a flying training org in the USA
accredited to their standards (as the guys in perth have done) and
then to issue one of their licences in addition to the FAA one.
the guys in Perth following this path for work in europe go to europe
with an Australian ICAO licence, which they dont need to show, and the
JAA one which is what they do show.
I dont really see your problem other than a gaff at the affront that
an FAA issued ICAO licence is somehow degraded by the european
attitude.
Are you saying that the Australian IR is similar to the FAA IR in
content?

There are no flight training organisations in the USA permitted to
train the European IR, AFAIK. This is standard European trade
protection. Only PPL training (to JAA papers) is doable in the USA - 6
or so schools in Florida and one is SoCal.

Robert M. Gary
2008-07-15 04:47:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stealth Pilot
or I can fly a certified australian
aircraft in american airspace on my australian licence under
reciprocal ICAO arrangements.
Well, that's the point.  If I read this correctly (Peter, please
clarify) you won't be able to do that anymore unless you meet their
requirements.  For example, say you're a US private pilot flying an N-
registered aircraft over there, and you have an instrument rating and
some additional instrument time (say 80 hours total) - guess what, you
don't meet their requirements and can't fly IFR, ICAO or no ICAO.  And
if you don't have 100 hours, you can't fly at all.
So most American airline pilots probably don't meet the ATP
requirements of the JAR either. Does that mean American flag carriers
can't fly in Europe?

-Robert
Peter
2008-07-15 09:57:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert M. Gary
So most American airline pilots probably don't meet the ATP
requirements of the JAR either. Does that mean American flag carriers
can't fly in Europe?
That is OK because they are "genuine foreigners" and those will always
be OK.

As an international traveller, ICAO protects your rights. You have an
ICAO PPL, an ICAO IR, an ICAO medical (the FAA medicals, incl the
Class 1, are ICAO compliant but "with differences filed" to eliminate
some silly stuff like the audiogram) and if the plane is registered in
the same country as the one which issued the paperwork, you can fly
anywhere.

The EASA move will hit pilots flying under U.S. paperwork in Europe IF
they are somehow ("how" is not currently defined) connected with
Europe. This could be citizenship, residence, taxpayer status, or
perhaps other stuff.

Citizenship could be fun if say a UK citizen is an ATP working for
Continental, flying into Europe :) That one could be dealt with by
exempting AOC operations.

The sh*t is yet to fully hit the fan on this proposal and no doubt
they will amend it according to political expediency.

The proposal on hitting N-reg *airframes* is yet to come out. That one
has been tried a few times in Europe already, and dropped. I have an
idea or two of what they might do...

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