taking off and joining - who's priority?

[A]

Consider an airfield with no radio, and no flying allowed on the deadside.

This means that aircraft joining overhead fly to the downwind end of the
runway, then along the runway whilst descending to circuit height.

If an aircraft arrives at this position (ie, at join height overhead the
downwind end of runway) at the same time as another aircraft is lining up
to take-off, there's contention for circuit height somewhere around the
upwind end of the runway.

Assuming no other traffic in the air or on the ground, is it better for
the aircraft in the air to orbit (or circuit at join height) until the
departing aircraft's out of the way, or for the aircraft on the ground to
wait until the joining aircraft has descended to circuit height and turned
crosswind?

I can see arguments either way.

[Geo]

Post by A
Consider an airfield with no radio, and no flying allowed on the deadside.
This means that aircraft joining overhead fly to the downwind end of the
runway, then along the runway whilst descending to circuit height.
If an aircraft arrives at this position (ie, at join height overhead the
downwind end of runway) at the same time as another aircraft is lining up
to take-off, there's contention for circuit height somewhere around the
upwind end of the runway.

I don't see that it makes much difference if the dead side cannot be used.
An overhead join involves a crosswind leg over the numbers at circuit height.
It is most unlikely that the aircraft taking off from this type of field will
reach 1000' by the far end of the runway (obviously there could be exceptions)
So 500' vertical separation would normally be maintained.

Geo

[A]

Post by Geo

Post by A
Consider an airfield with no radio, and no flying allowed on the deadside.
This means that aircraft joining overhead fly to the downwind end of the
runway, then along the runway whilst descending to circuit height.
If an aircraft arrives at this position (ie, at join height overhead the
downwind end of runway) at the same time as another aircraft is lining
up to take-off, there's contention for circuit height somewhere around
the upwind end of the runway.

I don't see that it makes much difference if the dead side cannot be
used. An overhead join involves a crosswind leg over the numbers at
circuit height.

I think the significance of the "no deadside" is that it means the descent
from join to circuit height is in a straight line along the runway, and
much steeper than if it's in a longer curve on the deadside. It also means
that the runway (and probably the whole airfield) is out of sight
underneath the whole time, so he can't see what aircraft lining up is
doing.

OTOH the lining-up aircraft can see the joining one, so maybe it would be
prudent for him to wait until the joiner's at least turned off the runway
line.

[Simon Hobson]

Post by A
Consider an airfield with no radio, and no flying allowed on the deadside.
This means that aircraft joining overhead fly to the downwind end of the
runway, then along the runway whilst descending to circuit height.
If an aircraft arrives at this position (ie, at join height overhead the
downwind end of runway) at the same time as another aircraft is lining up
to take-off, there's contention for circuit height somewhere around the
upwind end of the runway.
Assuming no other traffic in the air or on the ground, is it better for
the aircraft in the air to orbit (or circuit at join height) until the
departing aircraft's out of the way, or for the aircraft on the ground to
wait until the joining aircraft has descended to circuit height and turned
crosswind?

Obvious answer, both pilots engage brain !

If it were me in the overhead and I couldn't maintain visual with the
aircraft on the ground then I would turn early (well before crosswind leg)
and only descend to circuit height when clear of the runway and sure that
there wasn't something at circuit height below me.

The aircraft on the ground should remain below circuit height until clear of
the upwind end of the runway - I recall being told off by an instructor on
very windy day (down the runway, strong headwind) for being at circuit height
before we'd reached the end of the runway.

[N***@easily.co.uk]

Post by A
Consider an airfield with no radio, and no flying allowed on the deadside.
This means that aircraft joining overhead fly to the downwind end of the
runway, then along the runway whilst descending to circuit height.
If an aircraft arrives at this position (ie, at join height overhead the
downwind end of runway) at the same time as another aircraft is lining up
to take-off, there's contention for circuit height somewhere around the
upwind end of the runway.
Assuming no other traffic in the air or on the ground, is it better for
the aircraft in the air to orbit (or circuit at join height) until the
departing aircraft's out of the way, or for the aircraft on the ground to
wait until the joining aircraft has descended to circuit height and turned
crosswind?
I can see arguments either way.

If I understand what you're asking then you should be at circuit
height (1000ft) at the crosswind end of the runway. Whilst you need to
keep a good look out I suspect not many aircraft will be able to climb
to circuit height very quickly unless it's a long runway. I've never
had it happen to me but I'd be tempted to turn crosswind sooner as you
can't see what's behind you too easily.

I must confess I don't like this type of join and prefer the American
method of joining mid-field downwind at 45°.

[Peter]

Post by N***@easily.co.uk
If I understand what you're asking then you should be at circuit
height (1000ft) at the crosswind end of the runway. Whilst you need to
keep a good look out I suspect not many aircraft will be able to climb
to circuit height very quickly unless it's a long runway. I've never
had it happen to me but I'd be tempted to turn crosswind sooner as you
can't see what's behind you too easily.

I concur. Lots of airplanes and probably all aerobatic types can climb
to 1000ft AGL within the length of a runway. It's best to turn
crosswind early and get out of the way of the climbing airplane.

[david]

It seems to me that joining as you suggest would indeed compromise my
vision and thus safety. I would be inclined, in fact, I WOULD ditch the SOJ
and join from some other point in the circuit at circuit height. I'd
probably maneouver so that I could join from an extended down wind position,
thus being able to assess all other traffic .

David

Post by A
Consider an airfield with no radio, and no flying allowed on the deadside.
This means that aircraft joining overhead fly to the downwind end of the
runway, then along the runway whilst descending to circuit height.
If an aircraft arrives at this position (ie, at join height overhead the
downwind end of runway) at the same time as another aircraft is lining up
to take-off, there's contention for circuit height somewhere around the
upwind end of the runway.
Assuming no other traffic in the air or on the ground, is it better for
the aircraft in the air to orbit (or circuit at join height) until the
departing aircraft's out of the way, or for the aircraft on the ground to
wait until the joining aircraft has descended to circuit height and turned
crosswind?
I can see arguments either way.