PPL in Cambridge Questions

[Andy G]

Hi all,

I have just had my first flying lesson and I have decided to embark on my
PPL. Second lesson next week.

I am doing it at Cambridge Aero Club, has anyone used them before for their
PPL or experience of them?

They are a little more expensive per hour than some others, should I expect
this? as I am not sure yet of the price for the full course. I cant
apparently pay into a club account so I'm not sure what discounts if any
will be applicable.

Cheers for your help

Andy

[Tim Ward]

Post by Andy G
I have just had my first flying lesson and I have decided to embark on my
PPL. Second lesson next week.
I am doing it at Cambridge Aero Club, has anyone used them before for
their PPL or experience of them?

Yes. Perfectly happy with them. Got my PPL around there around fifteen years
ago, and repeated the course (rather more quickly) a couple of years ago
when I decided to start flying again.

Post by Andy G
They are a little more expensive per hour than some others, should I
expect this?

Ah, well, you see, you get new(ish) aircraft with all the electronics not
only fitted but actually working. Yes, it's cheaper to fly a 1948
string-and-canvas machine that's just about heard of a handheld radio ...
and some people much prefer to do so. Yer pays yer money and takes yer
choice, up to you.

Post by Andy G
as I am not sure yet of the price for the full course.

Depends on all the usual things, how quickly you learn, how often you have
lessons, the weather, and so on.

Post by Andy G
I cant apparently pay into a club account

Another good point IMO. This is *not* a club that is going to go bust owing
you large amounts of money, unlike plenty of others, because they don't want
you to lend them large amounts of money in the first place.

[david]

Post by Tim Ward

Post by Andy G
I cant apparently pay into a club account

Another good point IMO. This is *not* a club that is going to go bust
owing you large amounts of money, unlike plenty of others, because they
don't want you to lend them large amounts of money in the first place.

That's the point I was just about to make too. It's best NOT to stump up
huge sums in the first place as you are paying for something you havent had!
Probably better to pay as you go, but later if they do a "frequent flier"
programme then it's a reasonable idea to pay a deposit and fly that off as
it can save you a lot. But then you know you like flying and you know the
club!

I wonder what the fees are at Cambridge?


Whatever, enjoyit!

D

[David Cartwright]

Post by david
That's the point I was just about to make too. It's best NOT to stump up
huge sums in the first place as you are paying for something you havent
had! Probably better to pay as you go, but later if they do a "frequent
flier" programme then it's a reasonable idea to pay a deposit and fly that
off as it can save you a lot. But then you know you like flying and you
know the club!

Another thing on this subject: if you're paying up-front, pay with a credit
card. That way if they do go bust owing you money, you can claim from the
card company.

Post by david
I wonder what the fees are at Cambridge?

Bleedin' expensive, last time I went there, but at least they did a discount
if you could show you were on a training flight. I suspect they probably
have some kind of discount scheme for clubs/schools that are based there - I
know my club does at Norwich.

D.

[Peter]

Post by Tim Ward
Ah, well, you see, you get new(ish) aircraft with all the electronics not
only fitted but actually working. Yes, it's cheaper to fly a 1948
string-and-canvas machine that's just about heard of a handheld radio ...
and some people much prefer to do so. Yer pays yer money and takes yer
choice, up to you.

How true, and worth paying the extra for.

Cambridge is a good place to learn, IMHO. It's not busy but they do
have proper ATC so you learn the ATC procedures; this is useful if one
then later on "goes places" especially abroad. On reflection I would
much rather do a PPL in a place like that than at some smaller
uncontrolled airfield which turns into an incredibly busy free-for-all
whenever the weather is nice.

[Ross Younger]

[Cambridge Aero Club]
They are a little more expensive per hour than some others, should I expect
this?

Like so many other things in this world, you pay your money and take
your choice.

CAC may be quite expensive, but in their favour:

* I've heard very good things about their instructors.
* You're training in a full ATC environment which will stand you in good
stead.
* I understand CAC members don't pay landing fees at Cambridge, unlike
other clubs based there.

Personally, despite living in Cambridge I fly with Peterborough Conington;
it's significantly cheaper and the facilities are good. There are
other clubs and schools in the area; for example, there's MASF, also
based at Cambridge, and another club at Bourn. I'd suggest you visit at
least one other club and consider taking a lesson there so you get the
opportunity to judge whether you get on better with their club setup,
instructing style and so forth. You are the paying customer, after all,
and you're potentially going to spend a nontrivial amount of money with
them so it is well worth taking the time to choose well.

as I am not sure yet of the price for the full course

Beware of fine print in "whole PPL" quoted course prices - the headline
price often includes only the legal minimum number of flying hours
required. The actual cost will likely vary depending on how long it
takes you to achieve the required standard.

I cant apparently pay into a club account so I'm not sure what discounts
if any will be applicable.

As others have noted this is a risky proposition. All too often, clubs
go bust taking their customers' money with them. I'm not saying that one
should never, ever do this - indeed, I've done so with my current club,
but only after I had flown with them for some time and got a good handle
on how they operate.

Cheers,


Ross

[Andy G]

Cheers everyone, that's great.

I must admit I liked the instructor and the set up at Cambridge, it and he
were superb. I think because I have had a life long love of aviation it
maybe made his life a bit easier too as I knew a little bit and I was
relaxed and not nervous. I guess when you are nervous first time flyer it
must make their jobs so much harder.

I loved it right from the moment I got to the airport! I cant wait to go
again next Tuesday.

I guess I ought to go over to Connington too maybe? and do a trial flight
there? I wonder if they have any availability this week? or next?

What's their rate? for a trial lesson?

All the best everyone and thanks for your help. if anyone is local to me and
are going flying and wouldn't mind a passenger please let me know. One of
the perks of being self employed is having some time off when I like!.

Andy

Mr Andrew R Green B.Sc(Hons) FRAS.

Post by Ross Younger

[Cambridge Aero Club]
They are a little more expensive per hour than some others, should I expect
this?

Like so many other things in this world, you pay your money and take
your choice.
* I've heard very good things about their instructors.
* You're training in a full ATC environment which will stand you in good
stead.
* I understand CAC members don't pay landing fees at Cambridge, unlike
other clubs based there.
Personally, despite living in Cambridge I fly with Peterborough Conington;
it's significantly cheaper and the facilities are good. There are
other clubs and schools in the area; for example, there's MASF, also
based at Cambridge, and another club at Bourn. I'd suggest you visit at
least one other club and consider taking a lesson there so you get the
opportunity to judge whether you get on better with their club setup,
instructing style and so forth. You are the paying customer, after all,
and you're potentially going to spend a nontrivial amount of money with
them so it is well worth taking the time to choose well.

as I am not sure yet of the price for the full course

Beware of fine print in "whole PPL" quoted course prices - the headline
price often includes only the legal minimum number of flying hours
required. The actual cost will likely vary depending on how long it
takes you to achieve the required standard.

I cant apparently pay into a club account so I'm not sure what discounts
if any will be applicable.

As others have noted this is a risky proposition. All too often, clubs
go bust taking their customers' money with them. I'm not saying that one
should never, ever do this - indeed, I've done so with my current club,
but only after I had flown with them for some time and got a good handle
on how they operate.
Cheers,
Ross
--

[Ross Younger]

Post by Andy G
I guess I ought to go over to Connington too maybe? and do a trial flight
there? I wonder if they have any availability this week? or next?
What's their rate? for a trial lesson?

www.flying-club-conington.co.uk has contact details. I don't remember
their current trial lesson rates; the prices on the website are a little
out of date, but not hugely so. (The one rate I do remember is what I'm
currently paying - private hire for a C152, which is about GBP 84 per
[datcon] hour.) They tend to be quite busy at weekends - especially in
the summer - but alright during the week.


Ross

[Andy G]

Hi Ross,

I had a trial flight today at Conington 40 mins.

Vis was poor and it rained as we came in to land, but another bit of
experience and in contrasting conditions to Cambridge.

The club at Conington was very friendly, though the Warrior I went up in was
a little threadbare! and looked and felt rather old.

Other than that, I was a good 40 min flight of more hands on flying, I even
got to land this time round which was good and see some different areas of
Cambridgeshire.

My instructor told me he thought I had flown before just from the way I held
things and executed turns so hopefully I should be ok in the future, I
certainly hope so as I would dearly love to do my PPL.

Thanks to everyone for their help and support!

All the best

Andy
Mr Andrew R Green B.Sc(Hons) FRAS.

Post by Ross Younger

Post by Andy G
I guess I ought to go over to Connington too maybe? and do a trial flight
there? I wonder if they have any availability this week? or next?
What's their rate? for a trial lesson?

www.flying-club-conington.co.uk has contact details. I don't remember
their current trial lesson rates; the prices on the website are a little
out of date, but not hugely so. (The one rate I do remember is what I'm
currently paying - private hire for a C152, which is about GBP 84 per
[datcon] hour.) They tend to be quite busy at weekends - especially in
the summer - but alright during the week.
Ross
--

[Ross Younger]

Post by Andy G
The club at Conington was very friendly, though the Warrior I went up in was
a little threadbare! and looked and felt rather old.

A lot of club aircraft in this country are in that sort of condition -
mechanically fine (they have to be properly maintained to keep their C of
A), but with a few years on the clock, seats sagging a little, paintwork
a little faded... Keeping an aircraft in tip-top _cosmetic_ condition
inevitably pushes the price up. The choice, as they say, is yours!


Ross

[Peter]

Post by Ross Younger
A lot of club aircraft in this country are in that sort of condition -
mechanically fine (they have to be properly maintained to keep their C of
A), but with a few years on the clock, seats sagging a little, paintwork
a little faded... Keeping an aircraft in tip-top _cosmetic_ condition
inevitably pushes the price up. The choice, as they say, is yours!

I think you are being very polite :)

It doesn't take much for an aircraft to get its Transport CofA and to
pass its 50hr check. Basically, the wings have to be screwed in, the
controls have to work, and the altimeter should not be falling out of
the panel.

An awful lot of the equipment that might be fitted is not necessary
for VFR and doesn't have to be working.

That said, a fixed wing aircraft is a very simple thing and isn't
generally going to plummet unless something major falls off it, which
is why the current maintenance practices are not unsafe.

The conventional wisdom is that keeping an aeroplane in good condition
costs money, but this is less true than might at first appear. The
reason is that old aeroplanes are *very* expensive to maintain. It's
quite common for an old 1970 heap, worth perhaps £25k, to cost £5k on
every Annual, plus another few k getting it through several 50hr
checks. Most of this is airframe maintenance, which is always
expensive, in both labour and parts.

Whereas if you start with a new aeroplane, the airframe maintenance
cost should be close to nil for the first 10-15 years. The 2 year
warranty should take care of teething problems, including the fairly
common bunch of avionics failures. But you have the capital cost and
depreciation to finance...

IMHO, assuming reasonable access to capital, I don't think there is
much between the two cases, but the typical GA school doesn't have
access to capital so is stuck in a bit of a rut.

I have a school nearby (S. Coast) which has the new diesel Diamond
DA40 and is doing it at an hourly rate no higher than the old
spamcans. I don't know their business model obviously but I can easily
see how they make money.

[Andrew998]

Post by Peter
The conventional wisdom is that keeping an aeroplane in good condition
costs money, but this is less true than might at first appear. The
reason is that old aeroplanes are *very* expensive to maintain. It's
quite common for an old 1970 heap, worth perhaps £25k, to cost £5k on
every Annual, plus another few k getting it through several 50hr
checks. Most of this is airframe maintenance, which is always
expensive, in both labour and parts.
Whereas if you start with a new aeroplane, the airframe maintenance
cost should be close to nil for the first 10-15 years. The 2 year
warranty should take care of teething problems, including the fairly
common bunch of avionics failures. But you have the capital cost and
depreciation to finance...
IMHO, assuming reasonable access to capital, I don't think there is
much between the two cases, but the typical GA school doesn't have
access to capital so is stuck in a bit of a rut.

I think what you say is mainly true but I think it is more down to the
people running the businesses rather than access to capital. There are now a
number of large professional organisations that must be able to raise
finance but they still stick with tired old aircraft (not as bad as some but
still not good).

It would probably do a lot to revitalise the training industry and GA flying
if a few of these started approaching thier businesses in a more
professional fashion. If they invested in some new aircraft and some decent
marketing (i.e. not the usual adverts in the specialist press) they might
find that there are people that actually want to learn to fly.

[Andy G]

Thanks for all your replies and help.

It is helping me along great

All the best

Andy
Mr Andrew R Green B.Sc(Hons) FRAS.

Post by Andrew998

Post by Peter
The conventional wisdom is that keeping an aeroplane in good condition
costs money, but this is less true than might at first appear. The
reason is that old aeroplanes are *very* expensive to maintain. It's
quite common for an old 1970 heap, worth perhaps £25k, to cost £5k on
every Annual, plus another few k getting it through several 50hr
checks. Most of this is airframe maintenance, which is always
expensive, in both labour and parts.
Whereas if you start with a new aeroplane, the airframe maintenance
cost should be close to nil for the first 10-15 years. The 2 year
warranty should take care of teething problems, including the fairly
common bunch of avionics failures. But you have the capital cost and
depreciation to finance...
IMHO, assuming reasonable access to capital, I don't think there is
much between the two cases, but the typical GA school doesn't have
access to capital so is stuck in a bit of a rut.

I think what you say is mainly true but I think it is more down to the
people running the businesses rather than access to capital. There are now
a number of large professional organisations that must be able to raise
finance but they still stick with tired old aircraft (not as bad as some
but still not good).
It would probably do a lot to revitalise the training industry and GA
flying if a few of these started approaching thier businesses in a more
professional fashion. If they invested in some new aircraft and some
decent marketing (i.e. not the usual adverts in the specialist press) they
might find that there are people that actually want to learn to fly.
--
Andrew

[Julian Scarfe]

Post by Ross Younger
* I've heard very good things about their instructors.

When I started flying at Cambridge almost 20 years ago, the instructors were
*all* Marshalls test pilots -- had its advantages and disadvantages, mainly
advantages! These days, there's a mix of test pilots, biz-jet pilots, and
those who specialise in instruction. All are highly professional, and that
would seem to be a huge plus.

The organisation itself and management are not so customer-focused, as
you'll note from the parking arrangements. You may find that Marshalls's
engineering interests get a higher priority than instruction. But it seems
to employ people in all roles who are friendly and do a good job.

Julian

[Andy G]

I liked the fact that it was busy there, we were at the side of a recently
arrived DHL-757 which had just arrived for some horses from Newmarket, and
to see all the Herc's outside Marshall's was super.

Cheers

Andy
Mr Andrew R Green B.Sc(Hons) FRAS.

Post by Julian Scarfe

Post by Ross Younger
* I've heard very good things about their instructors.

When I started flying at Cambridge almost 20 years ago, the instructors
were *all* Marshalls test pilots -- had its advantages and disadvantages,
mainly advantages! These days, there's a mix of test pilots, biz-jet
pilots, and those who specialise in instruction. All are highly
professional, and that would seem to be a huge plus.
The organisation itself and management are not so customer-focused, as
you'll note from the parking arrangements. You may find that Marshalls's
engineering interests get a higher priority than instruction. But it
seems to employ people in all roles who are friendly and do a good job.
Julian