training north east of london

[jc255]

Any recomendations for flight schools 1hr from Harlow area.
What is the best way of getting charges (brakes on/off, flight time,
etc).

Also any recomended web sites for ground training practice.

[Andy R]

Post by jc255
What is the best way of getting charges (brakes on/off, flight time,
etc).

This is a subject I've ranted about before, here are my thoughts:

Airborn time (the best I think)
Tacho (not bad, often similar to airborn time but watch out for clubs that
say .8 tacho is equivalent to an hour)
Brakes off to brakes on or 'block time' (horrendously expensive)
Hobbs meter which works when the engine's running (even more horrendous)
Hobbs meter which works from the master switch (total rip off)

Choosing a club with the best billing method is particularly important when
choosing where to learn to fly. Somewhere that charges brakes off to brakes
on or Hobbs meter off the master switch will cost you
far more than airborn or tacho time. Even more so if it's somewhere busy
where you spend a lot of time taxying/holding.

ie take a lesson of 6 circuits at 10 minutes each at an aircraft cost of
£100 p/h. With say, 5 minutes for internal checks, 5 minutes for initial
taxy to the hold, 5 minutes holding, 2 minutes for each backtrack and 5
minutes for final taxy back and shutdown checks this would cost you £100 if
paying for airborn time or £150 if paying by a Hobbs meter linked to the
master switch. If we assume you need 45 hours in the air to reach test
standard then the cost difference could be over £2000.

Rgds

Andy R

[Peter]

Post by Andy R
Choosing a club with the best billing method is particularly important when
choosing where to learn to fly. Somewhere that charges brakes off to brakes
on or Hobbs meter off the master switch will cost you
far more than airborn or tacho time. Even more so if it's somewhere busy
where you spend a lot of time taxying/holding.

I have never personally come across a school that charges (for
lessons) on a basis other than brakes off to brakes on. I know there
are some but they are not common.

All aircraft maintenance (both G and N) is based on airborne time. The
Annual is the obvious exception of course. So why charge renters on a
different basis? OK, the school has to make money somehow and if they
charged for airborne time their hourly rate would have to be higher.

They would also need an hour meter linked to either landing gear
operation or airspeed, or GPS groundspeed. The last one would be the
simplest to do.

BO-BO encourages dodgy practices on the ground: fast taxiing, doing
the power checks before the first release of the brakes (with the
engine still cold), generally impatient and stupid behaviour, etc. I
see it everywhere I go. Recently I was taxiing along (Old Sarum) and
some dick overtook me on the taxiway. I don't taxi slowly, and anyway
I completed my power checks before he did and departed before him :)

It looks like most schools don't give a damn about the condition of
the aircraft.

[Andy R]

Post by Peter

Post by Andy R
Choosing a club with the best billing method is particularly important when
choosing where to learn to fly. Somewhere that charges brakes off to brakes
on or Hobbs meter off the master switch will cost you
far more than airborn or tacho time. Even more so if it's somewhere busy
where you spend a lot of time taxying/holding.

I have never personally come across a school that charges (for
lessons) on a basis other than brakes off to brakes on. I know there
are some but they are not common.
All aircraft maintenance (both G and N) is based on airborne time. The
Annual is the obvious exception of course. So why charge renters on a
different basis?

The problem is, if you charge by airborne time you've either got to rely on
the renter's honesty and his ability to accurately record airborn/landing
times or you need some automated way of recording it. There is a Hobbs
add-on which goes in the pitot line so the Hobbs starts at 40Kts but it
costs money to buy and fit. Also you need a separate way to charge for the
instructor who's not going to be very happy only getting paid for airborn
time.

Post by Peter
OK, the school has to make money somehow and if they
charged for airborne time their hourly rate would have to be higher.

True, but I'd rather pay for what I use rather than rely on my payments
averaging out with other users.

Post by Peter
BO-BO encourages dodgy practices on the ground: fast taxiing, doing
the power checks before the first release of the brakes (with the
engine still cold), generally impatient and stupid behaviour, etc. I
see it everywhere I go. Recently I was taxiing along (Old Sarum) and
some dick overtook me on the taxiway. I don't taxi slowly, and anyway
I completed my power checks before he did and departed before him :)

The thing is, if I was paying £2.50 per minute to taxy, I'd do the warm up
and power checks before I even started taxying, not start taxying until I
knew there was a gap and I could take off as soon as possible then taxy as
fast as practicable to the hold. Once in the air I'd fly it at max
permitted power for as much of the time as possible and not hang around
after landing.
As it is I fly a group a/c most of the time and we pay on tacho hours. That
way there's no real incentive to fly or taxy quickly.

Rgds

Andy R

[Peter]

Post by Andy R
As it is I fly a group a/c most of the time and we pay on tacho hours. That
way there's no real incentive to fly or taxy quickly.

Depends on how your "tacho" works.

Mine counts hh:mm all the time the RPM is above 1200, and zero below
that. This is unusual, and could be fooled by keeping the RPM below
1200. Or by switching off the master switch when in the air (yes this
is suprisingly common, believe it or not!!!!!).

Some are enabled by oil pressure, some by RPM.

Most, I think, simply count engine revolutions so the time recorded is
right only at a specific RPM.

The other thing which would make the whole thing more fair would be
renting DRY, and having a fuel flowmeter. This is how I work it with
the small group of others that fly mine. However, back when I used to
rent it out for instrument training, I found two instructors who
adjusted the fuel on board (FOB) figure in the flowmeter, to get a
lower bill. Really clever (not), and shows what sort of people can be
found in this game.... I could never prove it, but the only way they
could have achieved their amazing fuel usage was to get airborne,
climb to about 500ft and stay there, at 40% power. Fortunately I also
had the EDM700 data which showed the climb/descent times and probable
engine power settings:)

[B S D Chapman]

Post by Peter

Post by Andy R
As it is I fly a group a/c most of the time and we pay on tacho hours.
That
way there's no real incentive to fly or taxy quickly.

Depends on how your "tacho" works.

Tacho generally refers to the engine revolutions only.
Hobbs provides variations.

Personnally, I think the best charging system is one of either Tacho
(pretty much geared up to fuel consumption), T/O to Land + a fixed time
(helps cover petrol/instructor costs on ground, but provides no incentive
to rush checks), or the oil-pressure/RPM based based Hobbs system - which
pretty much limits charging to airbourne time (and makes glide circuits
VERY cost effective) and doesn't require honesty.

At my school, we charge airbourne time plus ten minutes.
Tacho readings are also required, so with the computer system following
time/tacho trends for each airframe, it soon becomes obvious if someone is
trying to pull a fast one.

[Ross Younger]

Post by Peter
I have never personally come across a school that charges (for
lessons) on a basis other than brakes off to brakes on. I know there
are some but they are not common.

When I learned with Skyline at Little Gransden, they charged tacho time
for aircraft - lesson or not - and the instructor separately on brakes
time.


Ross

[Peter]

Post by Ross Younger
When I learned with Skyline at Little Gransden, they charged tacho time
for aircraft - lesson or not - and the instructor separately on brakes
time.

Did you ever find out exactly how the tacho time worked?

[Ross Younger]

Post by Peter
Did you ever find out exactly how the tacho time worked?

Er, yes; it was explained to me early on, and I thought it was common
knowledge. It's like a car odometer. One tacho hour is what you get
from turning the prop at the red-line RPM for an hour on the clock - so
you'd expect an hour of normal flying to work out somewhere around 85-90%
of a tacho hour, at least with a fixed pitch prop.


Ross

[jc255]

What about different air fields. I am considering Stapleford, Southend,
Andrews Field.
Any comments on any of these.
Thanks

[Rick Briggs]

I don't know much about Andrewsfield, but Stapleford seems to be a nice
place and not far for you. I got my PPL at Panshanger and still fly there.
It was an easy choice as it is right on my doorstep at Welwyn Garden City.

Your choice of training facility depends on what you are looking for. I
prefer the small flying schools like Panshanger because you get to know
everybody and everybody gets to know you, so you feel more part of it all.
They are also pretty nice people! You can find them at
http://www.northlondonflyingschool.com/ .

Regarding the cost, you will just have to get in touch and compare for
yourself.

Rick Briggs.

Post by jc255
What about different air fields. I am considering Stapleford, Southend,
Andrews Field.
Any comments on any of these.
Thanks

[Peter]

Post by Rick Briggs
Your choice of training facility depends on what you are looking for. I
prefer the small flying schools like Panshanger because you get to know
everybody and everybody gets to know you, so you feel more part of it all.
They are also pretty nice people! You can find them at
http://www.northlondonflyingschool.com/ .

I've not trained at either but have been to both a few times and if I
was doing a PPL I would go to Panshanger without question.

Stapleford is much more busy, unbelievably busy during nice weather
with a lot of the "free for all" practices commonly seen at some
uncontrolled fields, with people cutting in front of you when you are
on final because they think you are not a proper pilot and they want
to show you they can fly a tighter circuit. That would scare the ****
out of me if I was learning, and even now I don't really want to go
there on a nice Sunday.

Panshanger is a nice place.

[David Cartwright]

Post by Andy R
Airborn time (the best I think)
Tacho (not bad, often similar to airborn time but watch out for clubs that
say .8 tacho is equivalent to an hour)
Brakes off to brakes on or 'block time' (horrendously expensive)
Hobbs meter which works when the engine's running (even more horrendous)
Hobbs meter which works from the master switch (total rip off)

First of all, it's not just the charging method that matters - look at the
actual prices too! I went from a club that charged from brakes off to brakes
on to a club that charged based on an engine-running-time Hobbs meter.
Sounds silly, doesn't it - except that the former was 95 pounds an hour and
the latter was 57. Saved an absolute packet.

Second, think about the extra stuff. Number one is landing fees; at my first
club (Norwich airport) we were paying about £6 for a landing. At the second
we paid £0 (it was an RAF base and Her Majesty graciously declined to charge
a landing fee). When I went to Cambridge on an IMC training flight it was
bleedin' expensive, but they did give a 50% discount for training flights
(I'm told they don't do that any more though). Similarly, my brother-in-law
is learning to fly at Fenland, in Lincolnshire, where if you're a member of
the club your landings are free because, I think, the guy who owns the club
also happens to own the airfield. Then you have ground school fees; some
clubs charge significant money for them, whereas my instructor asked only
for the occasional bottle of something alcoholic and pleasant :-)

Third, some clubs have a scheme whereby you can get a discount by paying for
your hours up-front. If you must do this, pay with a credit card; that way,
if the club goes pear-shaped, you can claim your money back from the card
provider under the Consumer Credit Act (the card company will moan, but will
pay up - I've done it myself when a furniture shop crashed and took my money
with it). One club I was a member of went under, so it does happen;
fortunately it was a pay-as-you-fly scheme so I didn't lose anything.

So yes, be clear about what the charging method is and thus be aware of
roughly how much it'll cost you in all. But don't forget to look at the big
picture.

D.