Discussion:
"fox" or "foxtrot"?
(too old to reply)
Ric
2007-07-28 11:06:48 UTC
Permalink
Here in France "fox" is universally used (even by ATC) in place of ICAO
standard "foxtrot". Has this found favour in the UK? Or do you all still say
"foxtrot"? It has been years since I flew in UK!
Andy Hart
2007-07-28 13:05:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric
Here in France "fox" is universally used (even by ATC) in place of ICAO
standard "foxtrot". Has this found favour in the UK? Or do you all
still say "foxtrot"? It has been years since I flew in UK!
Most say "Foxtrot", a small number say "fox" which is just plain wrong,
but it's just another example of the flood of poor and incorrect R/T.
--
Regards
Andy Hart
Ric
2007-07-28 18:08:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Hart
Most say "Foxtrot", a small number say "fox" which is just plain wrong,
but it's just another example of the flood of poor and incorrect R/T.
Interesting. Here in France "fox" is pretty universal, and is officially
accepted by flight examiners. I have now resorted to using "fox" as some of
the controllers seem to have difficulty with "foxtrot". IMO, "fox" does have
advantages - it is easier to say, it is clearer, and it cannot be confused
with anything else in the phonetic alphabet.
Andy Hart
2007-07-28 18:17:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric
Post by Andy Hart
Most say "Foxtrot", a small number say "fox" which is just plain wrong,
but it's just another example of the flood of poor and incorrect R/T.
Interesting. Here in France "fox" is pretty universal, and is
officially accepted by flight examiners. I have now resorted to using
"fox" as some of the controllers seem to have difficulty with
"foxtrot". IMO, "fox" does have advantages - it is easier to say, it is
clearer, and it cannot be confused with anything else in the phonetic
alphabet.
Maybe you should write to ICAO and get them to change it, until then we
should all use "Foxtrot". Standardisation is more important than
individual idiosyncrasies.
--
Regards
Andy Hart
Ric
2007-07-28 18:40:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Hart
Maybe you should write to ICAO and get them to change it, until then we
should all use "Foxtrot". Standardisation is more important than
individual idiosyncrasies.
As I wrote, it has already been changed here in France. My DGAC CPL examiner
even suggested at the debrief that I should use "fox" instead of "foxtrot".
I wouldn't be surprised if it is changed by the ICAO at some stage, though
whether I write or not is not going to make any difference.
Andy Hart
2007-07-28 19:06:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric
Post by Andy Hart
Maybe you should write to ICAO and get them to change it, until then we
should all use "Foxtrot". Standardisation is more important than
individual idiosyncrasies.
As I wrote, it has already been changed here in France.
Hmmm ... I doubt it, but if it has it will be mentioned in the
"differences" section of the French Air Pilot.
Post by Ric
My DGAC CPL examiner even suggested at the debrief that I should use
"fox" instead of "foxtrot". I wouldn't be surprised if it is changed by
the ICAO at some stage, though whether I write or not is not going to
make any difference.
--
Regards
Andy Hart
Ric
2007-07-28 20:01:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Hart
Hmmm ... I doubt it, but if it has it will be mentioned in the
"differences" section of the French Air Pilot.
As I said, if ever you fly in France you will find universal usage of
"fox" - you obviously don't fly here very often!. I am not defending it -
indeed I still use "foxtrot". I asked my FTO about it (all the instructors
use "fox") and they said that there was a derogation to use it in France,
though I have never seen it anywhere in writing. And as I said, my DGAC CPL
examiner even commented on it in the debrief.
Andy Hart
2007-07-28 22:37:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric
Post by Andy Hart
Hmmm ... I doubt it, but if it has it will be mentioned in the
"differences" section of the French Air Pilot.
As I said, if ever you fly in France you will find universal usage of
"fox"
It's not something I've ever noticed, but if you say so it's probably
the case, I'm not arguing with you, I'm just saying it's wrong.
Post by Ric
- you obviously don't fly here very often!.
I wouldn't bank on it :-)
Post by Ric
I am not defending it
Good
Post by Ric
- indeed I still use "foxtrot".
Good
Post by Ric
I asked my FTO about it (all the instructors use "fox")
I think they're wrong
Post by Ric
and they said that there was a derogation to use it in France,
I doubt it but it's possible, it will be in the Air Pilot
Post by Ric
though I have never seen it anywhere in writing. And as I said, my
DGAC CPL examiner even commented on it in the debrief.
It's amazing how many Instructors and examiners get things wrong.

To be honest, I don't care if they use "Fox" or "Foxtrot", it makes no
difference to me. I've always found the French controllers and pilots to
be polite and helpful, I have no problem with them.

This is very easy to sort out, I suggest you look up the phonetic
alphabet in the French Air Pilot and use whatever it says there and
forget about any hearsay or opinion from others.

To get it wrong is easy, To get it right is often just as easy.
--
Regards
Andy Hart
Jeroen Wenting
2007-07-29 09:40:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric
Post by Andy Hart
Maybe you should write to ICAO and get them to change it, until then we
should all use "Foxtrot". Standardisation is more important than
individual idiosyncrasies.
As I wrote, it has already been changed here in France. My DGAC CPL
examiner even suggested at the debrief that I should use "fox" instead of
"foxtrot". I wouldn't be surprised if it is changed by the ICAO at some
stage, though whether I write or not is not going to make any difference.
Why should the entire world change just to make things easier for the
French? Let the French for once adopt the worldwide standard instead of
whining that the world doesn't do what they want it to.
Andy R
2007-08-06 08:56:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Hart
Post by Ric
Here in France "fox" is universally used (even by ATC) in place of ICAO
standard "foxtrot". Has this found favour in the UK? Or do you all still
say "foxtrot"? It has been years since I flew in UK!
Most say "Foxtrot", a small number say "fox" which is just plain wrong,
but it's just another example of the flood of poor and incorrect R/T.
Going o/t, but staying with the subject of poor RT, it does make one wonder
if, had the controller used the correct phraseology when instructing the guy
to go around, the outcome of this may have been different.

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/Cessna%20F150L,%20G-BABB%2007-07.pdf

Rgds

Andy R
B!
2007-07-28 20:11:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric
Here in France "fox" is universally used (even by ATC) in place of ICAO
standard "foxtrot". Has this found favour in the UK? Or do you all still say
"foxtrot"? It has been years since I flew in UK!
Having flown VFR and IFR in France the last week, I must say that
French ATC proficiency is poor compared to UK, Benelux or Swiss
standards.
--
Boldly going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse
Ric
2007-07-28 21:21:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by B!
Having flown VFR and IFR in France the last week, I must say that
French ATC proficiency is poor compared to UK, Benelux or Swiss
standards.
In general their English R/T is very good, particularly at major airports.
The standard is a little poorer in some of the military controlled zones if
they are obliged to work in English. The overall standard is definitely
better than in Spain or Italy, where I fly regularly.

And bear in mind that you are judging the French controllers on their
proficiency in a second language. When they are working in their mother
tongue they are every bit as good as CAA controllers.
B!
2007-07-29 09:56:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric
Post by B!
Having flown VFR and IFR in France the last week, I must say that
French ATC proficiency is poor compared to UK, Benelux or Swiss
standards.
In general their English R/T is very good, particularly at major airports.
The standard is a little poorer in some of the military controlled zones if
they are obliged to work in English. The overall standard is definitely
better than in Spain or Italy, where I fly regularly.
The major civil airports were fine indeed. BTW, you didn't mention
Greece ;-)
Post by Ric
And bear in mind that you are judging the French controllers on their
proficiency in a second language. When they are working in their mother
tongue they are every bit as good as CAA controllers.
That's why I mentioned non-native English speaking controllers in the
Benelux and Switzerland.

Rene
--
Boldly going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse
D
2007-07-29 00:01:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by B!
Having flown VFR and IFR in France the last week, I must say that
French ATC proficiency is poor compared to UK, Benelux or Swiss
standards.
Not sure I agree with that at all. What are you basing your assertions on
(actual ocurrences rather than simply "being there")?

David
B!
2007-07-29 09:52:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
Post by B!
Having flown VFR and IFR in France the last week, I must say that
French ATC proficiency is poor compared to UK, Benelux or Swiss
standards.
Not sure I agree with that at all. What are you basing your assertions on
(actual ocurrences rather than simply "being there")?
One example: on an IFR flight from Rotterdam to Reims Prunay, we
joined the holding over REM. The controller asked us what our
destination was.. Well, LFQA, about 7 NM from REM and 7500 feet lower.
'No reported IFR traffic above FL060, goodbye'.
--
Boldly going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse
Stefan
2007-07-29 14:29:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric
Here in France "fox" is universally used (even by ATC) in place of ICAO
standard "foxtrot".
I dont' know wheter it's "universally used", but if so, it is just plain
wrong, even according to the French regulations. (Arrêté du 27 juin 2000
modifié relatif aux procédures de radiotéléphonie à l’usage de la
circulation aérienne générale, 2iéme édiution du 10 avril 2007, page 24)

That many lazy pilots are saying "Fox", are "learning" this from each
other and maybe even from instructors, is another sad story. There's a
reason why you should say Foxtrott, as "Fox" is easily confounded with
"six".
Ric
2007-07-30 19:23:30 UTC
Permalink
"Fox" is easily confounded with
Post by Stefan
"six".
Why? Because both end in "x"? By that token "foxtrot" is easily confused
with "eight" as both end in "t".

Personally, I think that "fox" does have plenty of advantages over
"foxtrot", especially for not native English speakers. It is shorter, and
avoids the "tr" sound which is very awkward for many non-English native
speakers.
Stefan
2007-07-31 10:11:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric
"Fox" is easily confounded with "six".
Why? Because both end in "x"? By that token "foxtrot" is easily confused
with "eight" as both end in "t".
Don't pretend to be stupid. Because it sounds *extremely* similiar,
especially with poor transmission quality and in a noisy einvironment.
The whole point of the standard ICAO phraseology ist to be unambiguos
even is less than perfect circumstances. (Just in case you forgot: Those
phraseology rules have often been written with blood.)
Les Hemmings
2007-07-31 11:30:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan
Post by Ric
"Fox" is easily confounded with "six".
Why? Because both end in "x"? By that token "foxtrot" is easily
confused with "eight" as both end in "t".
Don't pretend to be stupid. Because it sounds *extremely* similiar,
especially with poor transmission quality and in a noisy einvironment.
The whole point of the standard ICAO phraseology ist to be unambiguos
Those phraseology rules have often been written with blood.)
Seconded...
--
Remove Frontal Lobes to reply direct.

"These people believe the souls of fried space aliens inhabit their
bodies and hold soup cans to get rid of them. I should care what they
think?"...Valerie Emmanuel

Les Hemmings a.a #2251 SA
Ric
2007-08-01 06:00:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan
Post by Ric
"Fox" is easily confounded with "six".
Why? Because both end in "x"? By that token "foxtrot" is easily confused
with "eight" as both end in "t".
Don't pretend to be stupid. Because it sounds *extremely* similiar,
especially with poor transmission quality and in a noisy einvironment. The
whole point of the standard ICAO phraseology ist to be unambiguos even is
less than perfect circumstances. (Just in case you forgot: Those
phraseology rules have often been written with blood.)
Come on - "fox" and "six" are entirely unambiguous, even in poor quality
transmission. Just because a certain phraseology has been adopted some time
ago does not mean that it cannot be improved.
Lyndon
2007-08-01 08:15:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan
"Fox" is easily confounded with
Post by Stefan
"six".
Why? Because both end in "x"? By that token "foxtrot" is easily confused
with "eight" as both end in "t".
Personally, I think that "fox" does have plenty of advantages over
"foxtrot", especially for not native English speakers. It is shorter, and
avoids the "tr" sound which is very awkward for many non-English native
speakers.
VERY FEW pilots or controllers routinely use the correct phonetics for
numbers. It is not at all common to hear FIFE, NINER or TREE unless there
has ALREADY been some confusion (eg incorrect readback). If we use the
correct phonetics routinely, then there will be less need for clarifications
etc., and RT traffic is reduced.

Chirp Air Transport Feedback 79

I'm new to aviation, but have a keen interest in communication because I
live with a hearing loss, and communication problems are a part of my daily
life. I think the above quote suggests that we should not try to change the
system, even if pilots/controllers do routinely get sloppy. If 'fox' was
adopted, the potential 'fox' and 'six' confusion would be significantly
greater than any other potential number/letter confusion that I can think
of.
--
Lyndon
Louis Holleman
2007-08-02 08:17:59 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 09:15:51 +0100, "Lyndon"
Post by Lyndon
VERY FEW pilots or controllers routinely use the correct phonetics for
numbers. It is not at all common to hear FIFE, NINER or TREE unless there
has ALREADY been some confusion (eg incorrect readback). If we use the
correct phonetics routinely, then there will be less need for clarifications
etc., and RT traffic is reduced.
Lyndon, I believe the "niner" came in to make it more distinct from
"five", especially in bad transmission quality or where English is not
the native language for one of the participating parties. I've heard
numerous convo's where the controller said "five" and the other end
picked up "nine" or the other way around...

Louis
Stefan
2007-08-02 10:26:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louis Holleman
Post by Lyndon
VERY FEW pilots or controllers routinely use the correct phonetics for
numbers. It is not at all common to hear FIFE, NINER or TREE unless there
has ALREADY been some confusion (eg incorrect readback).
Lyndon, I believe the "niner" came in to make it more distinct from
"five",
And the dangerous part is, this error will *not* be picked up in the
read back!

Controller says "five".
Pilot understands and reads back "nine".
Controller expects and understands "five".

There have been many accidents or near accidents where the controller
didn't pick up the incorrect read back.

That said, *all* controllers I've dealt with so far used the correct
phraseology. But I've never flown in a country where the native language
is English...
Les Hemmings
2007-07-29 17:28:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric
Here in France "fox" is universally used (even by ATC) in place of
ICAO standard "foxtrot". Has this found favour in the UK? Or do you
all still say "foxtrot"? It has been years since I flew in UK!
Of course it's "Foxtrot"! Perhaps you'd like us to make them all
monosyllabic for the bleedin' frogs to get their snail hampered tongues
round?

Al, Bra, Cha, Del ..... Whis, X, Zu :o/ No one would ever get confused
over a bad circuit, at night, in a storm, with rain using those comfy
Gaullic abreviations now would they?

Now imagine it with a strong French accent, or, FFS, in French that seems to
be happening more and more over there. It's like their damned stupid laws
about every 2nd track on music radio has to be bloody French Rap have moved
to their "Clouseau of the Skies" the French ATC.

The international language of the air is English and the worldwide standard
for RT for "F" is Foxtrot!

What is the world coming too!

Les
--
Remove Frontal Lobes to reply direct.

"These people believe the souls of fried space aliens inhabit their
bodies and hold soup cans to get rid of them. I should care what they
think?"...Valerie Emmanuel

Les Hemmings a.a #2251 SA
Louis Holleman
2007-07-30 08:43:25 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 18:28:10 +0100, "Les Hemmings"
Post by Les Hemmings
Post by Ric
Here in France "fox" is universally used (even by ATC) in place of
ICAO standard "foxtrot". Has this found favour in the UK? Or do you
all still say "foxtrot"? It has been years since I flew in UK!
Of course it's "Foxtrot"! Perhaps you'd like us to make them all
monosyllabic for the bleedin' frogs to get their snail hampered tongues
round?
snippetysnip
Post by Les Hemmings
The international language of the air is English and the worldwide standard
for RT for "F" is Foxtrot!
What is the world coming too!
This is really funny.... from 1973 till 1978 I worked in the North Sea
offshore industry and in those years MOST of the BA Helicopters and
Bristows pilots used "Fox" instead of "foxtrot"... and so did a lot of
their Danish, Norwegian en Dutch collegues.
Les Hemmings
2007-07-30 08:52:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louis Holleman
Post by Les Hemmings
What is the world coming too!
This is really funny.... from 1973 till 1978 I worked in the North Sea
offshore industry and in those years MOST of the BA Helicopters and
Bristows pilots used "Fox" instead of "foxtrot"... and so did a lot of
their Danish, Norwegian en Dutch collegues.
It may just be me though... Still havn't forgiven the French for the Norman
invasion (1066) and still like to use the apostrophe in 'phone....

Les (a pedant at heart) ;o)
--
Remove Frontal Lobes to reply direct.

"These people believe the souls of fried space aliens inhabit their
bodies and hold soup cans to get rid of them. I should care what they
think?"...Valerie Emmanuel

Les Hemmings a.a #2251 SA
Ric
2007-07-30 19:19:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Louis Holleman
This is really funny.... from 1973 till 1978 I worked in the North Sea
offshore industry and in those years MOST of the BA Helicopters and
Bristows pilots used "Fox" instead of "foxtrot"... and so did a lot of
their Danish, Norwegian en Dutch collegues.
Interesting. So it is used outside of France, which was the quest of my
original post before the Little Englanders started butting in with
xenophobic remarks.
Andy Hart
2007-07-31 06:01:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric
Post by Louis Holleman
This is really funny.... from 1973 till 1978 I worked in the North Sea
offshore industry and in those years MOST of the BA Helicopters and
Bristows pilots used "Fox" instead of "foxtrot"... and so did a lot of
their Danish, Norwegian en Dutch collegues.
Interesting. So it is used outside of France, which was the quest of my
original post before the Little Englanders started butting in with
xenophobic remarks.
Why not just use the correct phraseology as promulgated in the French
AIP, you seem to think you know better than French aviation legislation.

Do it right and move on, stop trying to defend the indefensible, you may
have a preference for "Fox" but it's just plain wrong.
--
Regards
Andy Hart
Ric
2007-08-01 05:55:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Hart
Why not just use the correct phraseology as promulgated in the French
AIP, you seem to think you know better than French aviation legislation.
Do it right and move on, stop trying to defend the indefensible, you may
have a preference for "Fox" but it's just plain wrong.
--
You obviously have difficulty reading. I use "foxtrot". However, I am
interested to know whether "fox" is as widespread outside of France as it is
in France. It seems from some of the more intelligent people who are able to
read that in fact it is used outside of France.
Andy Hart
2007-08-01 14:26:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric
Post by Andy Hart
Why not just use the correct phraseology as promulgated in the French
AIP, you seem to think you know better than French aviation legislation.
Do it right and move on, stop trying to defend the indefensible, you
may have a preference for "Fox" but it's just plain wrong.
--
You obviously have difficulty reading.
Is that supposed to be some sort of insult or jibe?
Post by Ric
I use "foxtrot".
Good because it's correct.
Post by Ric
However, I am interested to know whether "fox" is as widespread
outside of France as it is in France.
In my experience it is not widespread (even in France), I do hear it
occasionally, I just put it down to poor R/T (there's lots of it about)
and get on with my job.
Post by Ric
It seems from some of the more intelligent people who are able to read
I think that was another attempt at an insult.
Post by Ric
that in fact it is used outside of France.
In my experience, occasionally.

Anyone who tells you to use "Fox" instead of "Foxtrot" is WRONG, it may
be a good idea to point this out to them and ask for some backup
documentation.

They will come up with various excuses like ...

We've always done it this way

It's the norm around here

It's quicker

none of which is justification for poor R/T, in fact, the most probable
reason is that they think it sounds "cooler".

It is up to all of us as pilots to teach by example.
--
Regards
Andy Hart
Ric
2007-07-30 19:16:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Les Hemmings
What is the world coming too!
Most of my French colleagues would know that your phrase should be "What is
the world coming to!".

English is not "the international language of the air" except in controlled
airspace. It is dangerous to use English in uncontrolled airspace in most
countries where English is not the native tongue - though this does not
deter Johnny English types from bumbling around in VFR on the continent,
landing against the runway in use at uncontrolled aerodromes etc, which I
have personally witnessed.

French has contributed a great deal to international aviation language - eg
"Mayday", "Pan" and all those TAF codes that are not automatically evident
to English speakers are derived from French - eg GR for hail (grêle in
French).
S Green
2007-07-30 19:45:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric
Post by Les Hemmings
What is the world coming too!
Most of my French colleagues would know that your phrase should be "What
is the world coming to!".
English is not "the international language of the air" except in
controlled airspace. It is dangerous to use English in uncontrolled
airspace in most countries where English is not the native tongue - though
this does not deter Johnny English types from bumbling around in VFR on
the continent, landing against the runway in use at uncontrolled
aerodromes etc, which I have personally witnessed.
French has contributed a great deal to international aviation language -
eg "Mayday", "Pan" and all those TAF codes that are not automatically
evident to English speakers are derived from French - eg GR for hail
(grêle in French).
That truly is a wonderful contribution
Louis Holleman
2007-07-31 09:56:08 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 20:45:45 +0100, "S Green"
Post by S Green
Post by Ric
French has contributed a great deal to international aviation language -
eg "Mayday", "Pan" and all those TAF codes that are not automatically
evident to English speakers are derived from French - eg GR for hail
(grêle in French).
That truly is a wonderful contribution
Let's not forget that both ICAO and ITU (the International
Telecommunication Union) are part of UN. ITU has laid down a lot of
basic principles for communication (in general, not only in aviation),
and surprise surprise, their HQ have always been in Geneva,
Switzerland, which is the french speaking part of the country.

Louis
S, Watson
2007-08-01 06:31:08 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:56:08 +0200, Louis Holleman
<***@holleman.demon.nl> wrote:

I think the behaviour of some of the posters on this subject has been
disgusting. The original poster simply asked a question," is fox being
used in your country instead of foxtrot" ?
Then out come all the rude of british farts with their stupid comments
about "frogs and froggies and damnded foreigners"
They are probably the ones sat in their very conservative semi in
surrey or wherever and complaining bittierly about the disgraceful
state of you behaviour of the british youth and never think to wonder
where they youth inherited all their xenophobia and racism and bad
attitiude
The person very civilly asled a question, why dont you give him a
civil answer ?
Oh and BTW , i am a Brit too
Andy McKenzie
2007-08-01 08:59:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by S, Watson
On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:56:08 +0200, Louis Holleman
I think the behaviour of some of the posters on this subject has been
disgusting. The original poster simply asked a question," is fox being
used in your country instead of foxtrot" ?
Then out come all the rude of british farts with their stupid comments
about "frogs and froggies and damnded foreigners"
They are probably the ones sat in their very conservative semi in
surrey or wherever and complaining bittierly about the disgraceful
state of you behaviour of the british youth and never think to wonder
where they youth inherited all their xenophobia and racism and bad
attitiude
The person very civilly asled a question, why dont you give him a
civil answer ?
Oh and BTW , i am a Brit too
Surely you meant to say 'conservative villa in spain' not 'conservative semi
in surrey'?

Andy
Gus Cabre
2007-08-02 23:42:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric
Here in France "fox" is universally used (even by ATC) in place of ICAO
standard "foxtrot". Has this found favour in the UK? Or do you all still
say "foxtrot"? It has been years since I flew in UK!
Ric,

Answering your question: no, it has not found favour in the UK and , yes, we
still say foxtrot. I have only heard it once out of France and have flown
quite a bit in Europe and in South America. For me, "Fox" is a French
variant.

If it is correct or not, that is another issue. I have heard many pilots in
the UK call "Finals" when ICAO says "Final"."Finals" is wrong. Also, in the
UK, the CAA changed the ICAO term of "holding position" for "holding point".
So, we also have our local rules.

Now, looking into what is correct in France, I have just checked the SIA
website and found that the correct word is "Foxtrot" as in page 23 of
http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/dossier/texteregle/RDA_TA_GEN_091.pdf.
So, please feel happy to continue saying "Foxtrot" as you are right and your
CFI, French pilots and ATCOs are wrong.

À bientôt mon ami,


Gus
A
2007-09-08 11:17:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gus Cabre
Post by Ric
Here in France "fox" is universally used (even by ATC) in place of ICAO
standard "foxtrot". Has this found favour in the UK? Or do you all
still say "foxtrot"? It has been years since I flew in UK!
Ric,
Answering your question: no, it has not found favour in the UK and ,
yes, we still say foxtrot. I have only heard it once out of France and
have flown quite a bit in Europe and in South America. For me, "Fox"
is a French variant.
If it is correct or not, that is another issue. I have heard many pilots
in the UK call "Finals" when ICAO says "Final"."Finals" is wrong.
There is plenty of bad RT, but that's got to be one of the most pointless
mistakes to comment on: it's universally used, and offers no possibility
of confusion. The only reason to say it is to show what kind of anorak you
wear ;-)

OTSO 'fox', my RT instructor (and FISO) admitted that one of the school
planes at his field was normally referred to on radio as "golf fox x" - as
long as there's no risk of confusion, surely it's only anorak-wearers
could object.

(In effect, "golf fox x" is a local idiom, similar to saying "queue en
aitch" rather than "quebec november hotel")

I notice that many French ground stations drop the "golf" from "golf
whisky lima".

A.
N***@easily.co.uk
2007-09-08 15:16:02 UTC
Permalink
The reason for ICAO is to standardise phonetics and reduce the
likelyhood of error. Many phonetics have more than one syllable to
further reduce the likelyhood of error.

Could Fox also sound like Box or Socks?

Sounds to melike it's just plain laziness.
Post by A
Post by Gus Cabre
Post by Ric
Here in France "fox" is universally used (even by ATC) in place of ICAO
standard "foxtrot". Has this found favour in the UK? Or do you all
still say "foxtrot"? It has been years since I flew in UK!
Ric,
Answering your question: no, it has not found favour in the UK and ,
yes, we still say foxtrot. I have only heard it once out of France and
have flown quite a bit in Europe and in South America. For me, "Fox"
is a French variant.
If it is correct or not, that is another issue. I have heard many pilots
in the UK call "Finals" when ICAO says "Final"."Finals" is wrong.
There is plenty of bad RT, but that's got to be one of the most pointless
mistakes to comment on: it's universally used, and offers no possibility
of confusion. The only reason to say it is to show what kind of anorak you
wear ;-)
OTSO 'fox', my RT instructor (and FISO) admitted that one of the school
planes at his field was normally referred to on radio as "golf fox x" - as
long as there's no risk of confusion, surely it's only anorak-wearers
could object.
(In effect, "golf fox x" is a local idiom, similar to saying "queue en
aitch" rather than "quebec november hotel")
I notice that many French ground stations drop the "golf" from "golf
whisky lima".
A.
CanalBuilder
2007-09-08 15:39:02 UTC
Permalink
Back in the old days (Second World War and Korea) the US and Uk armed
forces (and all the others I presume) had their own phonetic alphabets.
The American one started Able, Baker, etc., and the English one with Ack
and Beer (hence Ack Ack guns). This led, as you can imagine, to some
confusion so an international standard phonetic alphabet was created.
Until the international standard is changed Foxtrot is the correct
keyword for the letter F. If you think this should be changed, take it
up with ICAO.
Post by N***@easily.co.uk
The reason for ICAO is to standardise phonetics and reduce the
likelyhood of error. Many phonetics have more than one syllable to
further reduce the likelyhood of error.
Could Fox also sound like Box or Socks?
Sounds to melike it's just plain laziness.
Post by A
Post by Gus Cabre
Post by Ric
Here in France "fox" is universally used (even by ATC) in place of ICAO
standard "foxtrot". Has this found favour in the UK? Or do you all
still say "foxtrot"? It has been years since I flew in UK!
Ric,
Answering your question: no, it has not found favour in the UK and ,
yes, we still say foxtrot. I have only heard it once out of France and
have flown quite a bit in Europe and in South America. For me, "Fox"
is a French variant.
If it is correct or not, that is another issue. I have heard many pilots
in the UK call "Finals" when ICAO says "Final"."Finals" is wrong.
There is plenty of bad RT, but that's got to be one of the most pointless
mistakes to comment on: it's universally used, and offers no possibility
of confusion. The only reason to say it is to show what kind of anorak you
wear ;-)
OTSO 'fox', my RT instructor (and FISO) admitted that one of the school
planes at his field was normally referred to on radio as "golf fox x" - as
long as there's no risk of confusion, surely it's only anorak-wearers
could object.
(In effect, "golf fox x" is a local idiom, similar to saying "queue en
aitch" rather than "quebec november hotel")
I notice that many French ground stations drop the "golf" from "golf
whisky lima".
A.
A
2007-09-09 19:28:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by N***@easily.co.uk
Post by A
OTSO 'fox', my RT instructor (and FISO) admitted that one of the school
planes at his field was normally referred to on radio as "golf fox x" - as
long as there's no risk of confusion, surely it's only anorak-wearers
could object.
(In effect, "golf fox x" is a local idiom, similar to saying "queue en
aitch" rather than "quebec november hotel")
The reason for ICAO is to standardise phonetics and reduce the
likelyhood of error. Many phonetics have more than one syllable to
further reduce the likelyhood of error.
Could Fox also sound like Box or Socks?
Sounds to melike it's just plain laziness.
Yes, it is laziness - or efficiency, as it might also be called.

I'm sure that if "golf box x-ray" or "golf socks x-ray" ever entered the
circuit, the fiso would address G-FX using the correct phonetics.
Andy Hawkins
2007-08-06 10:19:19 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by Ric
Here in France "fox" is universally used (even by ATC) in place of ICAO
standard "foxtrot". Has this found favour in the UK? Or do you all still say
"foxtrot"? It has been years since I flew in UK!
I fly from a military field, and find some controllers will use 'Alpha Fox'
rather than 'Alpha Foxtrot' in the callsign. I alway use Foxtrot though (I'm
a low hours student pilot current in the circuit).

In the club, the aircraft are referred to as 'Alpha Fox', 'Romeo Golf' and
'JP' (not sure why the latter isn't used phonetically...)

Andy
Gus Cabre
2007-08-06 11:21:14 UTC
Permalink
Andy,

I have flown for years in Brize Norton and never heard "fox" used (I now fly
in other stations) How frequent is this? I will bring it up with SATCO.

Gus
Post by Andy Hawkins
Hi,
Post by Ric
Here in France "fox" is universally used (even by ATC) in place of ICAO
standard "foxtrot". Has this found favour in the UK? Or do you all still say
"foxtrot"? It has been years since I flew in UK!
I fly from a military field, and find some controllers will use 'Alpha Fox'
rather than 'Alpha Foxtrot' in the callsign. I alway use Foxtrot though (I'm
a low hours student pilot current in the circuit).
In the club, the aircraft are referred to as 'Alpha Fox', 'Romeo Golf' and
'JP' (not sure why the latter isn't used phonetically...)
Andy
Andy Hawkins
2007-08-06 21:50:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by Gus Cabre
I have flown for years in Brize Norton and never heard "fox" used (I now fly
in other stations) How frequent is this? I will bring it up with SATCO.
Oops, now I've dropped someone in it!

I can't say I've ever really paid much notice, I only really remember
hearing it the odd time when I have been in the circuit recently.

Andy
Julian Scarfe
2007-08-07 19:08:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric
Here in France "fox" is universally used (even by ATC) in place of ICAO
standard "foxtrot". Has this found favour in the UK? Or do you all still
say "foxtrot"? It has been years since I flew in UK!
We say "foxtrot". But if G were "golftrolley" I imagine we'd probably be
saying "golf". :-)

Sorry Belgium, you really lucked out on Oscar Oscar.

Julian
B!
2007-08-07 19:21:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Julian Scarfe
Sorry Belgium, you really lucked out on Oscar Oscar.
Pronounced in Teletubby-speak: 'Oh Oh!' ;-)
--
Brace for impact. Brace! Brace! Brace!
Ric
2007-08-08 09:01:32 UTC
Permalink
Just got back from a flight LFML-LIEE-LMML-LIEO-LFML (France, Italy to Malta
and back to save you looking it up) in an F reg plane. The French and
Italian controllers all used "fox" without exception. Malta approach used
"foxtrot", but ground control used "fox".
pietro
2007-08-08 10:48:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric
Just got back from a flight LFML-LIEE-LMML-LIEO-LFML (France, Italy to
Malta and back to save you looking it up) in an F reg plane. The French
and Italian controllers all used "fox" without exception. Malta approach
used "foxtrot", but ground control used "fox".
... and it will probably continue like that until the next serious
accident caused by R/T sloppiness (i.e. Teneriffe).
I do 90% of my flying in France and I have only used Foxtrot. It does
not disturb me at all when the other pilots and controllers in France
use Fox, anymore than the Americans use "point" instead of
"day-see-mal". What is important is that you are absolutely sure that
you are reading 5 when you hear it. When communications are bad then
stick to the R/T rules and nobody will point the finger at you.

P.
Ric
2007-08-08 16:11:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by pietro
... and it will probably continue like that until the next serious
accident caused by R/T sloppiness (i.e. Teneriffe).
I do 90% of my flying in France and I have only used Foxtrot. It does not
disturb me at all when the other pilots and controllers in France use Fox,
anymore than the Americans use "point" instead of "day-see-mal". What is
important is that you are absolutely sure that you are reading 5 when you
hear it. When communications are bad then stick to the R/T rules and
nobody will point the finger at you.
I don't disagree with the principle of your argument, and I use foxtrot
myself. However, I do think there is very little chance of confusion of fox
with anything else and it even has advabtages of brevity and clarity over
foxtrot.
Peter
2007-08-09 07:41:45 UTC
Permalink
I think we should stick to standards. There is enough of a language
problem already, with controllers often speaking poor English and
using sloppy phrases.

I've been cleared for takeoff with "cleared for departure" (this was
Greece) which was probably the most dangerous one. There have been
countless other examples.

On the one hand the pilot is grateful to be able to fly across France
at FL095, VFR, on the VOR-VOR-VOR routes, passing through bits of
Class D, without having to sit up and beg for a controlled airspace
transit each time, like we have to do here in the UK (and frequently
get refused). The French controllers just say "radar contact Nxxxxx"
and that's all you hear - it's an implied transit.

On the other hand the pilot never got a transit clearance so what
would happen if the tape got played back after an incident?

In 2003 I flew through one of the French nuclear power station TRAs. I
was under a radar service, with a special transponder code. They saw
exactly where I was but said nothing. They did ask me for the pilot's
name, which I thought was weird but gave it to them of course. They
never mentioned the alleged bust. I knew nothing of the alleged bust.
I knew of the TRA but only of its previous much smaller diameter.

In a piece of utterly shameful behaviour, 5 months later I got a
letter from the UK CAA on behalf of the DGAC asking who the pilot was
and the DGAC clearly wanted to prosecute. The real problem was that
the TRA did not show up in the notam data feed back then (this was
fixed soon afterwards) which was the fault of the French, but the DGAC
did not accept this was an excuse. I requested the radar tape which
showed me a few hundred metres inside the TRA circle, and it also
showed the transponder code :) :) :) proving I was under a radar
service at the time. In the end the matter was settled with a stroppy
warning letter from the CAA, which was basically irrelevant bollocks
but it served the job of closing the matter. The penalty in France is
something totally crazy like Euro 10,000 and/or aircraft confiscation.

This was a lesson. Now, when some French (or any other) controller
says "radar contact" AFTER I HAVE GIVEN HIM THE ROUTE THROUGH HIS
CLASS D I read it back with "CLEARED on route X - Y - Z Nxxxxxx" just
for their tape.

Now, IME, the French controllers speak good English (except one at La
Rochelle tower). Further south, it gets worse, and much worse.

Here in the UK, ATC phraseology is generally excellent but many many
pilots sounds like they have never used the radio.

We should stick to standard phraseology.
pietro
2007-09-11 07:27:36 UTC
Permalink
This is probably OT

I spent last weekend in Orleans and on Sunday morning it was foggy and
so T/O wasn't until about 12:00 LT. Well, it was cloud-dodging at 2500
feet most of the way to Mulhouse-Habsheim. Just after passing Luxueil I
tried to get the ATIS from Basle and the reception at that height was
pretty poor, but at least I understood the QNH (1020). Basle transmits
englisch and french continuously so if you do get interference it's
difficult to know which language is coming through at that moment. 10
miles from Habsheim I called the tower and told them I was inbound with
Juliet (the ATIS - not my girlfriend). ---- Silence!!! ---- So I tried
again. --- Still silence. I flicked back to Basle and there was the
ATIS. OK, good, so the radio still works. Then <I could hear traffic in
the vicinity but, all in French. So I tried the Tower again - still no
reply. Then, putting on my best school-french I let them know I was
inbound from the west and would be overhead in one minute. This had
never happened before, arriving back at the field and no tower. On
joining downwind I made the usual call "Foxtrot Golf Echo Uniform Alpha
downwind for Runway Zero Two" and to my surprise a voice replied "Fox
Uniform Alpha, QNH 1020, number one, report final." It was 2 o'clock on
the dot and the contoller had just finished his lunch break!
During this time he is off the air and all calls should be made blind
and in French. But it is amazing the thoughts that race through your
mind when things fall out of their usual pattern or you think you might
have to join a busy circuit with a dead radio

¨P
Andy R
2007-09-11 07:51:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by pietro
This is probably OT
I spent last weekend in Orleans and on Sunday morning it was foggy and so
T/O wasn't until about 12:00 LT. Well, it was cloud-dodging at 2500 feet
most of the way to Mulhouse-Habsheim. Just after passing Luxueil I tried
to get the ATIS from Basle and the reception at that height was pretty
poor, but at least I understood the QNH (1020). Basle transmits englisch
and french continuously so if you do get interference it's difficult to
know which language is coming through at that moment. 10 miles from
Habsheim I called the tower and told them I was inbound with Juliet (the
ATIS - not my girlfriend). ---- Silence!!! ---- So I tried again. ---
Still silence. I flicked back to Basle and there was the ATIS. OK, good,
so the radio still works. Then <I could hear traffic in the vicinity but,
all in French. So I tried the Tower again - still no reply. Then, putting
on my best school-french I let them know I was inbound from the west and
would be overhead in one minute. This had never happened before, arriving
back at the field and no tower. On joining downwind I made the usual call
"Foxtrot Golf Echo Uniform Alpha downwind for Runway Zero Two" and to my
surprise a voice replied "Fox Uniform Alpha, QNH 1020, number one, report
final." It was 2 o'clock on the dot and the contoller had just finished
his lunch break!
During this time he is off the air and all calls should be made blind and
in French. But it is amazing the thoughts that race through your mind when
things fall out of their usual pattern or you think you might have to join
a busy circuit with a dead radio
More importantly, the French know the importance of lunch.

Flying from Guernsey to Cherbourg once I had no success contacting Cherbourg
so went back to the guy I was talking to from Brest. He responded that as
Cherbourg were at lunch, I should land, go into town and have lunch myself.
He even gave me the phone number to cancel the flight plan after landing.
The airport was like the Marie Celeste, nothing had been closed up properly
but there was nobody there apart from, fortunately, a taxi driver who took
us into town. When we returned everything was back to life, we cleared
customs(?) etc and departed.

Perhaps this is why so many English people want to live in France, they seem
to have their priorites right.

Rgds

Andy R
Peter Twydell
2007-09-10 17:49:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric
Here in France "fox" is universally used (even by ATC) in place of ICAO
standard "foxtrot". Has this found favour in the UK? Or do you all
still say "foxtrot"? It has been years since I flew in UK!
At least one controller and at least one pilot were heard to use Fox at
Duxford yesterday.

I used a similar word when Red 7 took a birdstrike and had to RTB, thus
rather spoiling the display as he was one of the Synchro Pair.
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!
Mike Granby
2007-09-10 21:28:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Twydell
At least one controller and at least one pilot
were heard to use Fox at Duxford yesterday.
For what it's worth, fox is far from unheard of in the United States.

(Cue RT nazis droning on about verbally undisciplined Yanks...)
jan olieslagers
2007-11-23 14:01:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric
Here in France "fox" is universally used (even by ATC) in place of ICAO
standard "foxtrot". Has this found favour in the UK? Or do you all still
say "foxtrot"? It has been years since I flew in UK!
A delicate subject, it would seem!
From many hours of radio listening, though little flying,
allow me to add my little observation from tiny Belgium:

I have heard several times that the "formal"
oscar-oscar-victor-golf-foxtrot
changed into the less formal
oscar-golf-fox
(the callsign being of course fictitious)

and seem to recall from PPL ground school
that such change from formal to informal
is at the discretion of the ground station
(depending on other active call signs)
and so I take it to be the G/S's responsability.

Pilots can never do wrong by respecting
ICAO phraseology, even if contrary to local tradition.

And on a less formal note:
Rene "B!" is quite right, the better R/T is heard
in the smaller cultures, especially those
with 'big' neighbours. Best comm's I get to hear
are in my own Flanders and in Switzerland.
Dutch and Germans come in second ("zero" from
a Dutchman often sounds like "sea-row" ...) :
much good will but less profiency.
And I reckon the same must apply for
Scandinavians, largely speaking.

French are (generally speaking)less strong at
foreign languages but, as stated before,
often make up for their lack of skill
with lots of good will and good manners,
not to mention pragmatism.
(I remember not so long ago I was in France
next to the tower controller who was unable
to tell a German lady, taxiing after refuelling,
to hold short off the runway before crossing;
he graciously accepted my humble suggestions).

But to listen to R/T at a G/A field in
Spain or Italy, that is horrible indeed.
Greece, I daren't even wonder.
Andy Hart
2007-11-23 16:19:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by jan olieslagers
I have heard several times that the "formal"
oscar-oscar-victor-golf-foxtrot
changed into the less formal
oscar-golf-fox
(the callsign being of course fictitious)
and seem to recall from PPL ground school
that such change from formal to informal
is at the discretion of the ground station
(depending on other active call signs)
and so I take it to be the G/S's responsability.
The "abbreviation" of a call sign is (as you say) the responsibility of
the Ground Station, but is limited to the number of letters/numbers
*NOT* the length of them i.e.

oscar-oscar-victor-golf-foxtrot

abbreviates to ...

oscar-golf-foxtrot

Not ...

oscar-golf-fox
Post by jan olieslagers
Pilots can never do wrong by respecting
ICAO phraseology, even if contrary to local tradition.
True
--
Regards
Andy Hart
unknown
2007-11-23 23:51:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Hart
Post by jan olieslagers
I have heard several times that the "formal"
oscar-oscar-victor-golf-foxtrot
changed into the less formal
oscar-golf-fox
(the callsign being of course fictitious)
and seem to recall from PPL ground school
that such change from formal to informal
is at the discretion of the ground station
(depending on other active call signs)
and so I take it to be the G/S's responsability.
The "abbreviation" of a call sign is (as you say) the responsibility of
the Ground Station, but is limited to the number of letters/numbers
*NOT* the length of them i.e.
oscar-oscar-victor-golf-foxtrot
abbreviates to ...
oscar-golf-foxtrot
Not ...
oscar-golf-fox
Post by jan olieslagers
Pilots can never do wrong by respecting
ICAO phraseology, even if contrary to local tradition.
True
I was taught that BOTH parties to the communication had to agree on
abbreviation for it to be allowable, even though the ground station is
the only one allowed to initiate it - this made perfect sense to me,
as the ground station cannot tell if the air station may also be
receiving radio traffic from another station further afield, where a
confusion of call-signs could occur, and the air-station cannot tell
if there may be another aircraft shortly to join the frequency with a
potentialy conflicting abbreviation (like another aircraft just being
preflighted).

So the ground station may initiate an abbreviation, but if the air
station continues to use the full callsign, the ground station should
revert.

I actually had that precise situation once, where I could hear traffic
at another airfield on the same frequency (they were a long way off,
and it was only in the air that you could hear them, and even then,
only if the conditions were fairly exceptional). An aircraft at that
airfield was doing circuits, and had an identical abbreviation to
mine, so when A/G at my airfield abbreviated, I responded with my full
callsign, and they reverted.
The other aircraft almost immediately did the same.

I'm not sure if that's the full regulation, but, as I already said, it
certainly makes sense to me, and it's the way I've always been
prepared to do it - although I can't recall any other occasion when
it's been necessary.

Even if it's not in the regs, it certainly seems to be common sense -
I'd hate to think I was given a landing clearance, when it was
something at another airfield being cleared.

Safety is a state of mind, and confusion is it's enemy.
--
"When once man has flown, he will walk the earth with his eyes turned skyward,
for where he has been, there he will long to return." -- Leonardo da Vinci.
Peter
2007-11-24 07:47:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by unknown
So the ground station may initiate an abbreviation, but if the air
station continues to use the full callsign, the ground station should
revert.
I think few ATCOs, particularly outside the UK, know about the rule
that only the ground station may initiate the abbreviation.

As regards duplicate callsigns, I always tell ATC "there are two N-XX
on frequency". They always appreciate it.

The standard of ATC RT in some European countries is atrocious,
without getting into details like this. Italy comes to mind
immediately, but there is a whole bunch.

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