learning to fly

[Alan]

i have recently retired at 65 and would like to learn to fly unfortunatly it
is quite expensive, i live near guildford, any ideas of the cheapest options
there must be some variations in club prices

[david]

Alan, sorry to relate that flying is always just as expensive as it ever
was---"very", and "too". There are indeed variations in school prices, but
there are also variations in both the quality and nature of schools.

Do not fall into the (common) trap of seeing learning to fly as a means to
an end. Learning to fly is an adventure in itself. The course might take you
a year and you should enjoy every minute of it. Never again will you enjoy
such intense attention from your intructor, so use it and suck him / her dry
of all knowledge!

You ought to determine how far you are prepared to drive (especially on a
marginal day when you might turn up to find flying cancelled), then find all
schools in that radius. Then visit them all and see which one you like.
Just visit them, have a chat to the intructors, have a coffee. One of them
will suit you a lot, many you'll get on with and one or two you'll hate.

Go with the one you love.

Don't pay them in advance! You are not a bank and who knows what'll happen
to you / them over the next 12 months.

You could pop over to America and do the lot in 4 or 5 happy weeks. But then
you'll come back to an english winter and scare yourself witless !

And when you have finished the course join a PFA owners group and fly a real
[plane for very little money. It can be done.

HTH

David

Post by Alan
i have recently retired at 65 and would like to learn to fly unfortunatly
it is quite expensive, i live near guildford, any ideas of the cheapest
options there must be some variations in club prices

[Tom Gardner]

Post by Alan
i have recently retired at 65 and would like to learn to fly
unfortunatly it is quite expensive, i live near guildford, any ideas
of the cheapest options there must be some variations in club prices

You might like to consider gliding at Lasham
<http://www.lasham.org.uk/>

The last course I had there included someone
that was returning to gliding after 55 years away.

[Andy G]

Go for it Alan, you will love it!.

Sod the expense! it is truly awesome.

I just love it now, though I am still only a flying virgin on lesson 13 but
its fantastic.!

The people in this group are superb as well, they helped me sort out things,
thanks guys n Gals!

All the best

Andy
Mr Andrew R Green B.Sc(Hons) FRAS

Oh n Sorry Tom that last message was for the group

.

Post by Tom Gardner

Post by Alan
i have recently retired at 65 and would like to learn to fly
unfortunatly it is quite expensive, i live near guildford, any ideas
of the cheapest options there must be some variations in club prices

You might like to consider gliding at Lasham
<http://www.lasham.org.uk/>
The last course I had there included someone
that was returning to gliding after 55 years away.

[Surfer!]

Post by Tom Gardner

Post by Alan
i have recently retired at 65 and would like to learn to fly
unfortunatly it is quite expensive, i live near guildford, any ideas
of the cheapest options there must be some variations in club prices

You might like to consider gliding at Lasham
<http://www.lasham.org.uk/>
The last course I had there included someone
that was returning to gliding after 55 years away.

Yes, was going to suggest gliding as it is cheaper than flying - though
neither are (usually) easy to learn for us older folks.

[Peter]

Post by Surfer!
Yes, was going to suggest gliding as it is cheaper than flying - though
neither are (usually) easy to learn for us older folks.

Gliding may be cheaper but then one has to factor in the cost of a
divorce, because you spend the whole day at the gliding club waiting
to have a go :)

I looked into gliding myself and decided it wasn't for me; it's
similar to the windsurfing scene where (in one's 20s) one can spend
the whole day on the beach, which is fine if you have the time.

I think it's fair to say that the majority of people who have a
reasonable budget and want to learn to fly find the PPL *powered*
training scene highly frustrating (cancelled lessons due to weather,
instructors not turning up, the airplane broken, etc) and gliding is
going to require even more of a long term committment, both in
training and in eventual solo flying.

It's horses for courses.

[The Cardinal]

Post by Peter

Post by Surfer!
Yes, was going to suggest gliding as it is cheaper than flying - though
neither are (usually) easy to learn for us older folks.

Gliding may be cheaper but then one has to factor in the cost of a
divorce, because you spend the whole day at the gliding club waiting
to have a go :)
snip

I'm not sure gliding is actually cheaper in the learning stage at any
rate. I managed to solo after a couple of residential courses and had a
great time doing it. However, when I added up my hours (or rather
minutes:))the hourly rate was almost as dear as the training for my PPL.

I was envious of the blokes who arrived, rigged their gliders, took a
winch launch and came back 4 or 5 hours later all for the price of the
launch. When I think of the cost of 4 or 5 hours in our group's
Cessna......

db

[Mike Lindsay]

Post by The Cardinal
I was envious of the blokes who arrived, rigged their gliders, took a
winch launch and came back 4 or 5 hours later all for the price of the
launch. When I think of the cost of 4 or 5 hours in our group's
Cessna......
db

All for the price of a launch? What about (a) cost of insurance, (b)
cost of annual C of A, (c) cost of capital invested in the glider and
equipment?

Unless you do a lot of hours in the glider, it's likely to cost more per
hour than your C152 time.

[Surfer!]

Post by Mike Lindsay

Post by The Cardinal
I was envious of the blokes who arrived, rigged their gliders, took a
winch launch and came back 4 or 5 hours later all for the price of the
launch. When I think of the cost of 4 or 5 hours in our group's
Cessna......
db

All for the price of a launch? What about (a) cost of insurance, (b)
cost of annual C of A, (c) cost of capital invested in the glider and
equipment?

Probably all less than for a power plane.

Post by Mike Lindsay
Unless you do a lot of hours in the glider, it's likely to cost more per
hour than your C152 time.

What pushes the cost per minute up is not managing to stay up for long
after launching. It's £7 for a winch launch at our club (I think) so if
you do as 4-minute circuit that's expensive per minute (unless you need
the circuit to stay current), but if you are on the ridge for 30 minutes
that's a whole lot cheaper.

[The Cardinal]

Post by Surfer!

Post by Mike Lindsay

Post by The Cardinal
I was envious of the blokes who arrived, rigged their gliders, took a
winch launch and came back 4 or 5 hours later all for the price of the
launch. When I think of the cost of 4 or 5 hours in our group's
Cessna......
db

All for the price of a launch? What about (a) cost of insurance, (b)
cost of annual C of A, (c) cost of capital invested in the glider and
equipment?

Probably all less than for a power plane.

Post by Mike Lindsay
Unless you do a lot of hours in the glider, it's likely to cost more per
hour than your C152 time.

What pushes the cost per minute up is not managing to stay up for long
after launching. It's £7 for a winch launch at our club (I think) so if
you do as 4-minute circuit that's expensive per minute (unless you need
the circuit to stay current), but if you are on the ridge for 30 minutes
that's a whole lot cheaper.

I was being slightly tongue in cheek but I'd gladly swap you the price
of your glider's C of A, annual and insurance for that of our Cessna!
The point I was making that in the circuit the cost per minute is
comparable to the cost per minute of your average spam can.

db

[Canalbuilder]

If you want to fly a powered plane at minimum cost I suggest you do what
I have done, but a share in a PFA (Popular Flying Association) permit
aircraft. It doesn't always make the cost of learning to fly any less,
but when you've got your PPL it means that you can fly for less than £50
per hour. If you get the right plane it can be down to £20 an hour.

There are restrictions, but if you are flying for the fun of it and are
happy sticking to VFR (good weather flying) it can't be beat. To find
out more look at this site, http://www.pfa.org.uk/ Don't worry about
your age. I'm rapidly approaching 40 and I'm one of the youngest people
in my local PFA branch.

If you buy a share in a plane similar to the one you are being trained
in, you can fly your solo hours in your plane. You also get to meet lots
of other people who like to fly and most will give a go in their plane.

Whatever you choose to do, enjoy flying. And surprisingly flying a light
aircraft can have less environmental impact than driving (this is
important to me).

Ed Kiernan (part owner of G-BUKF)

Post by Surfer!

Post by Mike Lindsay

Post by The Cardinal
I was envious of the blokes who arrived, rigged their gliders, took a
winch launch and came back 4 or 5 hours later all for the price of the
launch. When I think of the cost of 4 or 5 hours in our group's
Cessna......
db

All for the price of a launch? What about (a) cost of insurance, (b)
cost of annual C of A, (c) cost of capital invested in the glider and
equipment?

Probably all less than for a power plane.

Post by Mike Lindsay
Unless you do a lot of hours in the glider, it's likely to cost more per
hour than your C152 time.

What pushes the cost per minute up is not managing to stay up for long
after launching. It's £7 for a winch launch at our club (I think) so if
you do as 4-minute circuit that's expensive per minute (unless you need
the circuit to stay current), but if you are on the ridge for 30 minutes
that's a whole lot cheaper.

[A]

Post by Canalbuilder
Whatever you choose to do, enjoy flying. And surprisingly flying a light
aircraft can have less environmental impact than driving (this is
important to me).

That *is* surprising - how do you work that out?

My flexwing does 2 gallons per hour at ~60mph, i.e. around 30mpg.

That's comparable mpg to a medium sized petrol car - but of course the
flying is (for me, as for most private pilots) all unnecessary leisure
flying, so it's completely avoidable pollution.

[Andy R]

Post by A

Post by Canalbuilder
Whatever you choose to do, enjoy flying. And surprisingly flying a light
aircraft can have less environmental impact than driving (this is
important to me).

That *is* surprising - how do you work that out?
My flexwing does 2 gallons per hour at ~60mph, i.e. around 30mpg.
That's comparable mpg to a medium sized petrol car - but of course the
flying is (for me, as for most private pilots) all unnecessary leisure
flying, so it's completely avoidable pollution.

I'll go along with that. I've flown several hundred hours in many types of
aircraft from a C150 to a Kingair and none of those flights has ever been
necessary, they were all for pleasure. For anyone with a PPL to claim they
are green is IMHO pushing their luck.

There's a finite amount of oil around, whether we burn it for fun, or
restrict ourselves and let every third world nation on earth burn it for us,
is largely academic. When it's gone it's gone so let's enjoy it. I can't
see it making any difference to the planet whether it's been burnt in an
IO540 or a tuk-tuk.

Rgds

Andy R

[Peter]

Post by Andy R
There's a finite amount of oil around, whether we burn it for fun, or
restrict ourselves and let every third world nation on earth burn it for us,
is largely academic. When it's gone it's gone so let's enjoy it. I can't
see it making any difference to the planet whether it's been burnt in an
IO540 or a tuk-tuk.

A TB20 (which happens to have an IO-540) does about 18MPG (UK miles,
UK gallons) at 140kt IAS, which is 2x better than the average 4x4
doing the school run.

Both are probably equally pointless.

[A]

Post by Andy R
There's a finite amount of oil around, whether we burn it for fun, or
restrict ourselves and let every third world nation on earth burn it for
us, is largely academic. When it's gone it's gone so let's enjoy it.

Absolutely. It's our kids' problem, not ours. Well, strictly it's *your*
kids' problem, since I don't think the future's not a nice thing to
inflict on anyone ;-/

A.

[Andrew Crane]

Post by A

Post by Andy R
There's a finite amount of oil around, whether we burn it for fun, or
restrict ourselves and let every third world nation on earth burn it for
us, is largely academic. When it's gone it's gone so let's enjoy it.

Absolutely. It's our kids' problem, not ours. Well, strictly it's *your*
kids' problem, since I don't think the future's not a nice thing to
inflict on anyone ;-/

Let's get this straight. So you go to bed, then tell your wife "Not now
love, I'm feeling quite horny but we can't do it because an O-540 has made
the world a bad place? :-)

[A]

Post by Andrew Crane
Let's get this straight. So you go to bed, then tell your wife "Not now
love, I'm feeling quite horny but we can't do it because an O-540 has
made the world a bad place? :-)

Not at all: thanks to modern technology, you don't need to have a baby
every time - cf the scene in Monty Python's The Meaning of Life :-)

A.

[Simon Hobson]

Post by A

Post by Canalbuilder
Whatever you choose to do, enjoy flying. And surprisingly flying a light
aircraft can have less environmental impact than driving (this is
important to me).

That *is* surprising - how do you work that out?
My flexwing does 2 gallons per hour at ~60mph, i.e. around 30mpg.
That's comparable mpg to a medium sized petrol car - but of course the
flying is (for me, as for most private pilots) all unnecessary leisure
flying, so it's completely avoidable pollution.

When I had the Warrior I reconed to do 6 1/2 gph, flying at 90mph+ in a
straight(ish) line - the straight line bit makes a BIG difference to distance
for many journeys. So that's around 14-15 mpg and very comparable to the
consumption of my Land Rover which doesn't go in a straight line and only
does 90mph downhill and with a following wind.

As you mention, other aircraft fly on much lower fuel consumption !

As to the "well it's only for recreation" argument, the same can be said of
many of my road journeys. It seems obvious to me that if you have decided to
make a journey, then it's a simple comparison of consumption between
different options.

If however you are simply flying for the sake of flying then I agree it's a
different matter.

[Peter]

Post by Simon Hobson
If however you are simply flying for the sake of flying then I agree it's a
different matter.

A lot of living is done just for the sake of living :)

But, if we start down this road, I would put £2000/year road tax on
4x4 vehicles except those used off road. Huge amounts of money would
be saved. Just one slight problem: not enforceable.

[Simon Hobson]

Post by Peter
But, if we start down this road, I would put £2000/year road tax on
4x4 vehicles except those used off road.

Define the vehicles you would put in this category ?

Define "used off-road" ? I'd be happy with such an exception as it would
include both of mine :-)

Post by Peter
Huge amounts of money would
be saved. Just one slight problem: not enforceable.

I can only see it being done on engine size, and possibly on whether it's
actually 4 four wheel drive. The latter is easily fiddlable - if it's a road
only motor you just lock the centre diff, remove the front propshaft, get it
verified at the next MOT and bingo - no longer a 4x4 for tax purposes but
otherwise no difference in consumption !

And for 2 grand I can think of ways to reduce the engine capacity and still
have a usable vehicle with no discernable change in consumption. IIRC, when
the Discovery first came out, one of the engine options was a 2l 4 cyl petrol
engine - not very popular, most people went 2.5 turbo diesel or 3.5l V8
petrol. Also IIRC, the 2l didn't actually drink less, you simply used more
throttle to get the same power (up to the llimit of course where 'performance
becomes an issue'). It's not the cc's that count, it's how you use them that
makes the emmissions.

And of course, just think of the effect on second hand values - would put
some very nice motors within my financial reach :-)


So, hopefully, you will realise that whilst these proposals (2k is what the
Libs called for) are great soundbites and feed off the 'class envy' and
ignorance of the masses, in practical terms they would not have the desired
effect because they just haven't been thought through.

Don't forget that one of the things that killed off our garment manufacturing
industry was import taxation. OK, it's an over simplification, but in order
to protect the textile industry many decades ago, the government introduced
import duties on cloth - the idea being that it would make it more economical
to import the thread and weave the cloth here. Instead, it made it more
economic to manufacture complete garments abroad and so killed off that
industry as well as failing to protect the textile industry.

It's seems at times that modern government is about introducing rules and
regulations with no thought about the consequences and without thinking
things through. Regulations that make the roads more dangerous, regulations
that encourage fly-tipping, systems to make identity theft/fraud easier, and
now regulations called for to make 'pollution taxes' that are unrelated to
pollution on a class of vehicles that no-one has yet defined beyond "I know
it when I see it".


But then you miss the point entirely, owning a vehicle does not in itself
produce CO2 or other emmissions. Why should something that sits on my drive
most of the time and do very low milage be taxed more than something that has
twice the mpg figure but does as many miles in a month and said 4x4 does in a
year ?


Oh yes, and just for good measure, if you REALLY want reduced CO2 - campaign
for the elimination of cats (that's the catalytic converters, not the furry
purring ones) - they alone are responsible for significant amounts of CO2
emmissions, possibly 10-20% on many setups !


PS - this really belongs in uk.transport where yoou find some 'fine flame
wars' and trolls to argue the toss with !

[d***@gmail.com]

Post by The Cardinal
I'm not sure gliding is actually cheaper in the learning stage at any
rate. I managed to solo after a couple of residential courses and had a
great time doing it. However, when I added up my hours (or rather
minutes:))the hourly rate was almost as dear as the training for my PPL.

To add a few figures:
Suppose you solo after around 40 flights and maybe 12-14 hours. This
cost me around £450 in launch and flying (hire) fees. Instruction is
free in gliding. When you're not getting such a good deal on flying
fees, you'll be spending maybe £200 hundred more. (At Portmoak, it's
currently 38p/min and £7 for a winch launch.)

Of course that's only solo. To add a cross-country endorsement, it'll
take a bit longer. (No-one seems to get R/T licenses here.) Even then,
it's the fraction of the cost of getting a PPL. But what I found was
that once solo, I seemed to be getting a lot more flights and a lot
more flying time in. Even without being in a syndicate.

And yes, you'll be spending a whole lot of time rigging and de-rigging
aircraft, pushing them across the airfield, launching them, cooking
lunch on a camping stove, taking and re-wiring instrument panels and
the like. Other people program open source, fix their bikes, or watch
soaps. It's a hobby....

[Surfer!]

Post by d***@gmail.com

Post by The Cardinal
I'm not sure gliding is actually cheaper in the learning stage at any
rate. I managed to solo after a couple of residential courses and had a
great time doing it. However, when I added up my hours (or rather
minutes:))the hourly rate was almost as dear as the training for my PPL.

Suppose you solo after around 40 flights and maybe 12-14 hours. This
cost me around £450 in launch and flying (hire) fees.

Wish it had taken me that little!

Post by d***@gmail.com
Instruction is
free in gliding.

Yes, when I asked our instructors why they did it I ended up with the
feeling they failed to run fast enough in the right direction when
someone was casting around for new instructor candidates. It costs a
lot of money to qualify as well - there's all the pre-course training,
then the course, then more post-course. However at Portmoak you can do
booked flying where the instructor does get paid a little. It will keep
me going towards Bronze through the winter.

Post by d***@gmail.com
When you're not getting such a good deal on flying
fees, you'll be spending maybe £200 hundred more. (At Portmoak, it's
currently 38p/min and £7 for a winch launch.)

It was £6.50 and 33p/min until recently. Insurance is costing us a lot
more...

Post by d***@gmail.com
Of course that's only solo. To add a cross-country endorsement, it'll
take a bit longer. (No-one seems to get R/T licenses here.) Even then,
it's the fraction of the cost of getting a PPL. But what I found was
that once solo, I seemed to be getting a lot more flights and a lot
more flying time in. Even without being in a syndicate.

Once one is off daily check flights it's a lot easier to get up in a
Junior, weather permitting. There is so much less of the faffing around
trying to check flights out of a duty instructor who really wants to
stay on the ground.

Post by d***@gmail.com
And yes, you'll be spending a whole lot of time rigging and de-rigging
aircraft, pushing them across the airfield, launching them, cooking
lunch on a camping stove, taking and re-wiring instrument panels and
the like. Other people program open source, fix their bikes, or watch
soaps. It's a hobby....

I haven't done any rigging / derigging yet (I once 'helped' someone
derig by watching!) - but then so far I've only flown the club's
aircraft. That also means I've escaped the rewiring etc., but I have
spent quite a bit of time walking around holding a glider wing, keeping
the flying log, waving my arm for 'take up slack', 'all out' and the
very occasional 'stop', and I've spent plenty of time trying to ignore
the cakes in the canteen whilst waiting for the weather to clear! Plus
I also have photography as another hobby and belong to two camera
clubs...

[Mike Lindsay]

Post by Surfer!
way.
Yes, was going to suggest gliding as it is cheaper than flying - though
neither are (usually) easy to learn for us older folks.

That depends on the value you put on your time.

You can book an hours power flying and be reasonable certain that it
wont use up more than an afternoon or a morning.

Not so easy with gliding.

[A]

Post by Alan
i have recently retired at 65 and would like to learn to fly
unfortunatly it is quite expensive, i live near guildford, any ideas of
the cheapest options there must be some variations in club prices

Paramotor is the cheapest powered flight, but the older you get the harder
it gets, and there's no scope for taking a passenger (which for me is a
big part of the fun of flying).

For maximum fun-per-pound you should consider microlights, which (in the
fixed-wing variant) aren't significantly different from GA. You need fewer
hours for a licence, and those hours are cheaper - as are the running
costs. The flexwing microlights are less comfortable, colder, cheaper,
slower, and more fun.

I think your nearest school is Popham
(http://www.microlightflyingschool.co.uk/) - a good first step is to
contact them for a trial lesson.

As far as GA goes, there are a number of schools at Redhill
(http://www.redhillaerodrome.com/)

A.

[John Blessing]

Post by A

Post by Alan
i have recently retired at 65 and would like to learn to fly
unfortunatly it is quite expensive, i live near guildford, any ideas of
the cheapest options there must be some variations in club prices

Paramotor is the cheapest powered flight, but the older you get the harder
it gets, and there's no scope for taking a passenger (which for me is a
big part of the fun of flying).

Let's not forget paragliding. We have an 80yr old in our club who still
flies regularly.

[Alan]

Post by John Blessing

Post by A

Post by Alan
i have recently retired at 65 and would like to learn to fly
unfortunatly it is quite expensive, i live near guildford, any ideas of
the cheapest options there must be some variations in club prices

Paramotor is the cheapest powered flight, but the older you get the harder
it gets, and there's no scope for taking a passenger (which for me is a
big part of the fun of flying).

Let's not forget paragliding. We have an 80yr old in our club who still
flies regularly.
--
John Blessing
http://www.LbeHelpdesk.com - Help Desk software priced to suit all
businesses
http://www.room-booking-software.com - Schedule rooms & equipment bookings
for your meeting/class over the web.
http://www.lbetoolbox.com - Remove Duplicates from MS Outlook,
find/replace, send newsletters
he may be 80 now but how long ago did he start, we are talking about
"learning" to fly at retirement age i got my class 1 HGV and PSV 1 when i
was 21 i am not sure that i would like to try that course now but because
i have been driving all these years it is no bother to me now

[david]

Alan, what is your likely budget?

Could you afford up to 3 grand?
Up to 5? 8?

All in one go? A hundred quid a month?

Some idea here will greatly help find a cheap solution!

David

Post by Alan
i have recently retired at 65 and would like to learn to fly unfortunatly
it is quite expensive, i live near guildford, any ideas of the cheapest
options there must be some variations in club prices

[Alan]

3/5/8 are all ok but i prefer not to spend more than i need, i am told that
i can get a PPL in America for a good price, has anyone done this and was it
worth going all that way also, what was the quality of the tuition

Post by david
Alan, what is your likely budget?
Could you afford up to 3 grand?
Up to 5? 8?
All in one go? A hundred quid a month?
Some idea here will greatly help find a cheap solution!
David

Post by Alan
i have recently retired at 65 and would like to learn to fly unfortunatly
it is quite expensive, i live near guildford, any ideas of the cheapest
options there must be some variations in club prices

[Ross Younger]

Post by Alan
3/5/8 are all ok but i prefer not to spend more than i need, i am told that
i can get a PPL in America for a good price, has anyone done this and was it
worth going all that way also, what was the quality of the tuition

You can indeed do this; there are a handful of training schools out there
who are JAA-approved, meaning you can get a UK PPL in one go (as opposed
to an FAA PPL which you'd then have to convert). It's very intensive,
though. One can, in theory, do the whole thing in three or four weeks.
If doing so, expect to spend a little time with an instructor back home
working on the differences in procedures and getting to grips with the
great British weather.

However, whether or not an intensive course is the right answer for you
depends on what you want to get out of flying. If you just want to be
able to meet the challenge and say "yes I can fly", by all means take a
cheap intensive course. If you want to take your time and have fun on the
way, consider spreading it over some time - I did, was able to take the
ground-school and flying at my own pace (and as my cashflow allowed!),
saw a lot more of the different sorts of conditions around the year -
and had a blast doing so which I'm now building on to take my flying to
further levels.

As others have said be extremely wary about paying up front. Too many
flying schools have gone out of business taking their members' money
with them.

If you're not sure which way to start looking, find some schools local
to you and pay them a visit - talk to the students and instructors,
take a trial lesson or two to see if you get on with their style.
You can also find reviews on the web forums and in the magazines.

Cheers,


Ross

[Peter]

Post by Ross Younger
You can indeed do this; there are a handful of training schools out there
who are JAA-approved, meaning you can get a UK PPL in one go (as opposed
to an FAA PPL which you'd then have to convert)

The holder of any ICAO PPL can fly a G-reg worldwide (yes worldwide)
under VFR.

So if you have an FAA PPL no conversion is required.

Any conversion requirement is either the result of ignorance, or a
money making scheme. An FAA PPL is in no way inferior to a JAA PPL, in
terms of flying capability etc.

There is a Q mark over the night privilege (which comes as standard
with it) in the UK, because it is VFR only, but night flight in the UK
is normally under IFR; I am not aware whether this obscure corner of
aviation law has ever been tested.

The above is for a G-reg. One can't fly an F-reg or a D-reg on an FAA
PPL without some (perhaps considerable) paperwork. The UK is unique,
or nearly unique, in automatically validating ICAO PPLs in this way.

To a novice looking into flying, let me offer a tip: THINK AHEAD. It's
quite possible you will settle down into flying old rag and tube types
and never venture more than the crease in your chart, in which case
any old license is fine, and the NPPL will do. But.... you might want
to go a bit further, and then you have a lot more work unless you
planned it a bit better all along.

I did the JAA PPL, then the night qualification, then the IMC Rating.
Then got access to a decent airplane, then did an FAA PPL, FAA IR and
now doing (for obscure technical reasons unconnected with actually
flying) the FAA CPL.

If i was doing this all again, I would do

1. JAA PPL + night (BUT ensuring I met all the FAA PPL training
requirements at the same time), OR

2. FAA PPL + night (BUT ensuring I met all the JAA PPL training
requirements at the same time)

3. IMC Rating (BUT ensuring I met all the FAA IR training requirements
as the same time)

4. JAA medical and a FAA Class 2 medical at the same time

Some U.S. schools will do 2. and then (in the UK) you just sit the six
JAA exams and do a JAA checkride, and you have both a JAA PPL and a
*standalone* FAA PPL. This is priceless! The FAA PPL never expires;
you just need a BFR every 2 years and this can be done in a G-reg in
the UK, even at the same time as your 2-yearly JAA check :)

All this costs hardly anything extra and opens up the way to getting
the FAA IR in the most cost effective manner.

For example, on 1. you do the night flying to meet the FAA
requirements which means doing a somewhat longer (50 or 100nm) dual
night flight instead of the local bimble which most UK students do. If
you now make that flight last > 2hrs, it will qualify for the FAA CPL
too. Same with day flights; you can knock off several requirements all
in one go.

Here's some background for those who might want to go further:

http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/faa-pplir/pplir.html


Peter.
--
Return address is invalid to help stop junk mail.
E-mail replies to ***@peter2000XY.co.uk but remove the X and the Y.

[Andy R]

Post by Alan
3/5/8 are all ok but i prefer not to spend more than i need, i am told
that i can get a PPL in America for a good price, has anyone done this and
was it worth going all that way also, what was the quality of the tuition

I learned in Norfolk, took a tent, camped on the airfield and flew whenever
it was possible. Half the PPL was done in well under a fortnight. If the
instructors know you're always available they can work around the weather,
it's rarely bad all day so you can either start early or wait til late but
you get a couple of hours in most days.

Most small airfields are quite accomodating, if you've got a caravan or
camper van they'll let you park there while you're doing the course. It's
quite a rewarding way to do it, you spend the whole time completely immersed
in the club environment and don't have to travel 1000s of miles to do it.
The guy that owned the club where I learnt now runs another club on a small
airfield in East Anglia. If you're interested email me and I'll send you
the contact details. I happen to know that he's got caravan on the
airfield at the moment so with a bit of sweet talking he'll probably let you
stay in it if you do an intensive course

Rgds

Andy R

[Mark Jones Laptop2]

Post by Alan
i have recently retired at 65 and would like to learn to fly unfortunatly
it is quite expensive, i live near guildford, any ideas of the cheapest
options there must be some variations in club prices

Fairoaks is your closest - where I learnt - but probably the dearest (yet
very good) in the Country.

Try Ormonde Beach Avaition, near Daytona, Florida. I've "fly-hired" there
several times. Run buy a Yorkshireman called Adrian. Great location,
accommodation and fixed/guaranteed prices. Also a great sense of comradery
with other UK and European students. 3 weeks in the sun and a PPL is very
possible for less than £4000 inc accommodation and meal voucers. (good bar
too)

BTW. I'm not personally or financially involved.

Good luck - whatever the cost "Go for it" you'll love it.

Mark Jones

[N***@easily.co.uk]

On Sat, 4 Nov 2006 21:22:21 -0000, "Mark Jones Laptop2"

Post by Mark Jones Laptop2

Post by Alan
i have recently retired at 65 and would like to learn to fly unfortunatly
it is quite expensive, i live near guildford, any ideas of the cheapest
options there must be some variations in club prices

Fairoaks is your closest - where I learnt - but probably the dearest (yet
very good) in the Country.
Try Ormonde Beach Avaition, near Daytona, Florida. I've "fly-hired" there
several times. Run buy a Yorkshireman called Adrian. Great location,
accommodation and fixed/guaranteed prices. Also a great sense of comradery
with other UK and European students. 3 weeks in the sun and a PPL is very
possible for less than £4000 inc accommodation and meal voucers. (good bar
too)
BTW. I'm not personally or financially involved.
Good luck - whatever the cost "Go for it" you'll love it.
Mark Jones

I learned to fly in the USA in 1991, then some time later converted to
UK ICAO so I could use it abroad (Spain etc.) and subsequently added
the IMC rating. It took 1 month in Florida with excellent weather most
of the time (Nov/DEC). Personally I found it the best way. Flying
every day for 1 to 2 hours (AM + PM) and sometimes at night. The main
thing to remember is to do as much of the book work as possible so you
can take the exams when you arrive and concentrate on the flying. I
was 48 when I learned to fly and found the flying straight forward but
the book work was much harder as I'd not studied for nearly 30 years!
I had been reading the books casually for about a year during lunch
and tea breaks at work.

I had a friend who went to Ormond Beach Aviation, near Daytona last
December. Had she not been very, very determined I doubt she would
have got her PPL. They let students fly in conditions which may not
have been suitable (wind, weather, sunset). The instructors were not
all teaching to the same sheet so she demanded they have a meeting and
ensure instructors agreed on the method of doing things! She did
manage it in 3 weeks but would not have trained their knowing the
problems. One nearby ATC seemed to dislike students from this
organisation and gave some a hard time.

I have no up to date knowledge but have seen good reports about Naples
Air Centre in Florida http://www.naples-air-center.com/

If you go to the USA make sure you get all the required bits of paper
from CAA+FAA.

[Alt Beer]

Post by N***@easily.co.uk
I learned to fly in the USA in 1991, then some time later converted to
UK ICAO so I could use it abroad (Spain etc.) and subsequently added
the IMC rating. It took 1 month in Florida with excellent weather most
of the time (Nov/DEC)

Do you remember who you trained with in Florida?

Has anyone had experience with Orlando Flight Training? any good?
There is a Cabair logo on one of their web pages.

Thanks

[Peter]

Post by Alt Beer
Do you remember who you trained with in Florida?
Has anyone had experience with Orlando Flight Training? any good?
There is a Cabair logo on one of their web pages.

I don't know if one can do a *JAA* PPL there, but I would prefer
Arizona or southern California for an intensive course. The weather is
practically guaranteed so you can fly fly and fly. You get good
quickly, absorb it well, and no time is wasted. You are also more
likely to fly with the same instructor all the time.

I did my IR at www.aerobatics.com and apart from them making me work
very hard :) I would recommend them - very well organised.

In any event, if you turn up in the UK with an FAA PPL, you can fly a
G-reg aircraft on it worldwide VFR. Not a lot of people know that.

If you really want a *JAA* PPL then you can do that afterwards at any
time, by sitting all the 6 JAA exams, getting a CAA Class 2 medical,
and doing a UK skills test.

I have done the FAA standalone PPL (a few years after doing the JAA
one) and it is at least as hard in terms of flying skills. I therefore
don't see any loss in just doing an FAA PPL and then converting it to
JAA if/when needed, over here.

The only reasons I can think of for having a *JAA* PPL are

1. A lot of rental organisations have no idea the FAA PPL is valid in
a G-reg

2. A lot of people in the UK think FAA training is substandard (which
I can tell you is total crap), but who cares what they think?

3. For flying another EU-reg airplane e.g. D-reg or F-reg

4. For the IMC Rating

5. For the JAA IR

[Alt Beer]

Post by Peter

Post by Alt Beer
Do you remember who you trained with in Florida?
Has anyone had experience with Orlando Flight Training? any good?
There is a Cabair logo on one of their web pages.

I don't know if one can do a *JAA* PPL there, but I would prefer
Arizona or southern California for an intensive course. The weather is
practically guaranteed so you can fly fly and fly. You get good
quickly, absorb it well, and no time is wasted. You are also more
likely to fly with the same instructor all the time.
I did my IR at www.aerobatics.com and apart from them making me work
very hard :) I would recommend them - very well organised.
In any event, if you turn up in the UK with an FAA PPL, you can fly a
G-reg aircraft on it worldwide VFR. Not a lot of people know that.
If you really want a *JAA* PPL then you can do that afterwards at any
time, by sitting all the 6 JAA exams, getting a CAA Class 2 medical,
and doing a UK skills test.

Thanks for the info and link.
I already have current passes in all JAA exams (except R/T practical) so I'd
prefer to complete the JAA PPL stuff first before thinking about FAA PPL.
Is anyone here aware of a JAA PPL flight training place in Arizona or
southern California?

Thanks

[Peter]

Post by Alt Beer
Thanks for the info and link.
I already have current passes in all JAA exams (except R/T practical) so I'd
prefer to complete the JAA PPL stuff first before thinking about FAA PPL.
Is anyone here aware of a JAA PPL flight training place in Arizona or
southern California?

Google for

jaa ppl arizona

and see what turns up :)

The point I would make is that a lot of these schools will arrange the
training so that you are actually doing the FAA PPL, while meeting the
syllabus requirements for the JAA one also, and the proper ones have a
real JAA examiner doing checkrides.

If you can get an FAA PPL while you are at it, you will never regret
it! It never expires, for starters, and gives you a much more
reasonable route to an IR later.

[Peter]

and this might be handy

http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/faa-pplir/tsa-visa.html

[N***@easily.co.uk]

On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 16:02:31 +0000, Peter

Post by Peter

Post by Alt Beer
Thanks for the info and link.
I already have current passes in all JAA exams (except R/T practical) so I'd
prefer to complete the JAA PPL stuff first before thinking about FAA PPL.
Is anyone here aware of a JAA PPL flight training place in Arizona or
southern California?

Google for
jaa ppl arizona
and see what turns up :)
The point I would make is that a lot of these schools will arrange the
training so that you are actually doing the FAA PPL, while meeting the
syllabus requirements for the JAA one also, and the proper ones have a
real JAA examiner doing checkrides.
If you can get an FAA PPL while you are at it, you will never regret
it! It never expires, for starters, and gives you a much more
reasonable route to an IR later.

I'm not familiar with the latest FAA requirements but I believe you
can still get a FAA certificate bsed on a UK PPL.
BUT....
What may not be realised is that if you have an original FAA PPL (like
me) you need a FAA medical (2 years ago cost ~£50 in Honolulu).

If you have a FAA certificate 'based' on your CAA PPL then you only
need the CAA medical to be valid to use the FAA certificate.

Unfortunately I have both CAA & FAA PPL's so need both medicals which
for UK cost me around £200 including ECG per year. The FAA medical is
valid for 2 years and no ECG.

[Peter]

Post by N***@easily.co.uk
I'm not familiar with the latest FAA requirements but I believe you
can still get a FAA certificate bsed on a UK PPL.

Yes, it's informally called a "piggyback" FAA PPL. Needs the UK PPL
and the UK medical to be valid. I believe you also lose the FAA
privileges if you don't pay up on the JAA 5-year PPL expiry.

Post by N***@easily.co.uk
BUT....
What may not be realised is that if you have an original FAA PPL (like
me) you need a FAA medical (2 years ago cost ~£50 in Honolulu).

Yes, if you have a standalone FAA PPL then you need a standalone FAA
medical.

One can get them in the UK, very easily.

Post by N***@easily.co.uk
If you have a FAA certificate 'based' on your CAA PPL then you only
need the CAA medical to be valid to use the FAA certificate.

True.

Post by N***@easily.co.uk
Unfortunately I have both CAA & FAA PPL's so need both medicals which
for UK cost me around £200 including ECG per year. The FAA medical is
valid for 2 years and no ECG.

The ECG depends on your age, IIRC :) I have held both a Class 2 FAA
and (currently) Class 1 FAA. The latter has an ECG; the former does
above a certain age.

While a CAA Class 2 might cost £150, an FAA Class 2 or 3 is likely to
cost about £60, for a broadly similar kind of check-up. Even the Class
1 FAA costs about £80 and it is the same medical for initial and
renewal; an CAA Class 1 is about £500 initially.

If I was doing this myself all over again, I would go to Arizona, do
an FAA PPL and then do the CAA one when back in the UK, if needed.

However, best to not under-estimate the ground study for the FAA PPL.
It's only one exam but the *tech* content exceeds that of the six CAA
exams. There is also a fair bit of alien stuff like U.S. airspace
rules and these could be quite confusing to somebody new.

[N***@easily.co.uk]

On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 14:37:24 +0000, Peter
<***@somewhere-in-the-uk.com> wrote:

...snip...

Post by Peter
I don't know if one can do a *JAA* PPL there, but I would prefer
Arizona or southern California for an intensive course. The weather is
practically guaranteed so you can fly fly and fly. You get good
quickly, absorb it well, and no time is wasted. You are also more
likely to fly with the same instructor all the time.

Beware coastal fog in some areas of California!

I once flew out of Carlsbad, CA in clear weather and decided to return
because of smoke from forest fires about 10miles away. By the time I
got back I needed DF headings to find the runway as the fires had
caused dense fog to come across the airfield :-)

[N***@easily.co.uk]

Post by Alt Beer

Post by N***@easily.co.uk
I learned to fly in the USA in 1991, then some time later converted to
UK ICAO so I could use it abroad (Spain etc.) and subsequently added
the IMC rating. It took 1 month in Florida with excellent weather most
of the time (Nov/DEC)

Do you remember who you trained with in Florida?
Has anyone had experience with Orlando Flight Training? any good?
There is a Cabair logo on one of their web pages.
Thanks

Yes, it was Airwise Aviation run by Gary Evans, working out of
Discovery Aviation FBO at Titusville. He then changed to Voyager
Aviation on the other side of the airfield, operating out of Gateway.
Now he appears to be at Merrit Island and called Voyager Aviation
Flight Academy.

After getting the PPL I returned to Titusville (now Space Centre
Executive), a couple of times, and rented for a week and went touring
the Bahamas down to Long Island and Crooked Island - fantastic!

[NoSpam]

Post by Alan
i have recently retired at 65 and would like to learn to fly unfortunatly it
is quite expensive, i live near guildford, any ideas of the cheapest options
there must be some variations in club prices

Old Sarum isn't that far away (just N of Salisbury). Sensible prices,
good fleet, friendly staff and a good location.
http://www.oldsarumflyingclub.co.uk
01722-322525

Dave

[Steve Firth]

Post by NoSpam
Old Sarum isn't that far away (just N of Salisbury). Sensible prices,
good fleet, friendly staff and a good location.
http://www.oldsarumflyingclub.co.uk

I'll second that, I've had lessons at Old Sarum and thoroughly enjoyed the
location, atmosphere at the club and the quality of the teaching was
excellent.

[Surfer!]

Post by Alan
i have recently retired at 65 and would like to learn to fly unfortunatly it
is quite expensive, i live near guildford, any ideas of the cheapest options
there must be some variations in club prices

An alternative would be to try gliding - there are several clubs near
where you live, and overall it's quite a bit cheaper than power flying
though of course costs vary between clubs - so do facilities. The BGA
web site will tell you more, and you can organise a trial lesson to see
if you like it or not.

www.gliding.co.uk

[Akos]

... try gliding ... it's quite a bit cheaper than power flying

I spent last year gliding instead of flying, and at the end calculated
the costs and the per minute flying cost came out almost the same as for
flying (admittably, I only did aerotow launches, no winch ones, while
the latter is much cheaper). But in the begining while learning and you
only do 5-10 mins circuits, which could take a few years, there is not
much of a cost advantage, in my experience.

A'

[Surfer!]

Post by Akos

... try gliding ... it's quite a bit cheaper than power flying

I spent last year gliding instead of flying, and at the end calculated
the costs and the per minute flying cost came out almost the same as
for flying (admittably, I only did aerotow launches, no winch ones,
while the latter is much cheaper). But in the begining while learning
and you only do 5-10 mins circuits, which could take a few years, there
is not much of a cost advantage, in my experience.

I suspect it's fewer hours to solo in a glider - I started in April this
year and went solo in late August so I'd say it doesn't take 'years'.
I'm not in the first flush of youth, and it took effort and hard work,
but I made it inside 5 months including 3 weeks away on holiday.

In those few months I have had two flights of almost 2 hours (one to
12,000') and plenty of over 25 minutes, two of which were solo
(conditions haven't been kind since I went solo). My first flight was
37 minutes. OK - I am lucky, there are two hills near where I glide so
with many wind directions we can soar them, and the 12,000' flight was
in wave, but clearly gliding has possibilities!

This has all been off a winch - the thought of an aerotow for circuits
is financially crippling - but surely that's one of the things to look
at when choosing a club?

I'd also like to point out that the running costs of a glider will be
less than of a light plane.