Discussion:
Cessna 152 which crashed in Wales
(too old to reply)
solinus
2006-09-13 15:43:14 UTC
Permalink
Does anyone know whether the course the aircraft was on was true for
its destination?
Edward
2006-09-13 20:13:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by solinus
Does anyone know whether the course the aircraft was on was true for
its destination?
Direct Caernarfon-Hereford would be approximately SE

The crash site is slightly N of E of departure.
--
Edward..
solinus
2006-09-14 08:00:43 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Edward.

Would it be possible to also give me the following info:

Distance between the two airports
Heading from Caernarfon
Highest point within a 5 mile corridor each side of heading?
Average hight for a VFR flight?
Average flying time?

I don't have any charts for that area at hand.

Thanks again
Peter
2006-09-14 08:51:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by solinus
Thanks Edward.
Distance between the two airports
Heading from Caernarfon
Highest point within a 5 mile corridor each side of heading?
Average hight for a VFR flight?
Average flying time?
I don't have any charts for that area at hand.
Thanks again
You don't need any "charts" other than the CAA VFR chart, which is
£14.
solinus
2006-09-14 15:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Peter why are you hi jacking a posting intended for someone else?
Please don't waste time!
Andrew998
2006-09-14 16:54:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by solinus
Peter why are you hi jacking a posting intended for someone else?
Please don't waste time!
Usenet is a public medium, if your query is specific to somebody then email
is the appropriate medium.

However, you could criticise Peter for his irrelevant post!
--
Andrew
Peter
2006-09-14 21:00:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew998
However, you could criticise Peter for his irrelevant post!
I was curious as to the motive of the original question. Sounded like
Press to me.
Eeyore
2006-09-14 19:39:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by solinus
Peter why are you hi jacking a posting intended for someone else?
Where did it say it was for someone else ?

If you want to have a private chat use email !

Graham
Geoff
2006-09-17 09:50:05 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 09:51:24 +0100, Peter
Post by Peter
Post by solinus
Thanks Edward.
Distance between the two airports
Heading from Caernarfon
Highest point within a 5 mile corridor each side of heading?
Average hight for a VFR flight?
Average flying time?
I don't have any charts for that area at hand.
Thanks again
You don't need any "charts" other than the CAA VFR chart, which is
£14.
£5 CAV card ;-)
Edward
2006-09-14 20:57:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by solinus
Thanks Edward.
Distance between the two airports
Heading from Caernarfon
Highest point within a 5 mile corridor each side of heading?
Average hight for a VFR flight?
Average flying time?
I don't have any charts for that area at hand.
Thanks again
Sorry, I'm not a flyer. I could only work from a road atlas. The info
I gave was because I am a local.
Caernarfon has a typical A shape 3 runway layout oriented about 10
degrees anticlockwise from North.
You probably know that there are 14 peaks over 3,000 feet in the Snowdon
massif with Snowdon being the tallest at about 3,700. Occasionally
people fly into them, why is a moot point. An eyewitness (earwitness?)
said that they were in cloud when the impact happened.
In the 50s my father was a civilian conntractor at RAF Valley. One day
he was lunching in the officers mess with one of his pilots and some RAF
ones. The RAF ones left to go to another station and flew their Anson
into Snowdon.

As a non flyer it is a puzzle to me why pilots stooge around in NW Wales
in cloudy conditions at less than 4,000 feet.
--
Edward..

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Peter
2006-09-14 22:15:43 UTC
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Post by Edward
As a non flyer it is a puzzle to me why pilots stooge around in NW Wales
in cloudy conditions at less than 4,000 feet.
It happens because they have VFR privileges only, so they try really
hard to remain clear of cloud, they don't have instrument training,
and they get snookered by weather in all directions.

Occassionally it happens because of poor decisionmaking; leaving
crucial decisions till too late.

Under the VFR banner, PPL training is rather basic and you are
supposed to make relatively drastic decisions (basically, divert or
abandon altogether) in good time. These decisions have to be made on
the fly. One can understand why pilots often don't make these
decisions until it's too late.

An instrument pilot will plan a flight as IFR, at a safe level, and
fly it, cloud or no cloud (preferably above cloud), terminating with
an instrument approach. If he gets a view that is a bonus. Obviously
this is a simplification but that is the general idea.

The point is that an ad hoc transition from VFR to IFR isn't really on
unless a) you know what you are doing and preferably b) you planned
**and navigated** the flight as IFR in the first place.
Stefan
2006-09-14 22:55:17 UTC
Permalink
Under the VFR banner, ...
These decisions have to be made on the fly.
...
An instrument pilot will plan a flight as IFR, at a safe level,
...

Excuse me for snipping somewhat distorting. Anyway: A VFR pilot is
supposed to plan his flight, to consider all reasonable eventualities
(wheather being one of the most important), and to work out a Plan B
before takeoff. Jumping into an airplane, getting airborne and wondering
why the air suddenly fills with clouds and mountains is not VFR flying,
but simply stupid. So there are no "on the fly decisions" fo VFR pilots
either, other than the on the fly decision to abandon Plan A and divert
to Plan B.

Stefan
Peter
2006-09-15 07:49:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan
Excuse me for snipping somewhat distorting. Anyway: A VFR pilot is
supposed to plan his flight, to consider all reasonable eventualities
(wheather being one of the most important), and to work out a Plan B
before takeoff. Jumping into an airplane, getting airborne and wondering
why the air suddenly fills with clouds and mountains is not VFR flying,
but simply stupid. So there are no "on the fly decisions" fo VFR pilots
either, other than the on the fly decision to abandon Plan A and divert
to Plan B.
Well, yes, you are right but if you are VFR (as you should be, to be
legal) then you can see ahead, you are "not" going to fly into a hill,
and there is the great temptation to do scud running.

If you are flying under IFR, in IMC, then the relevant decisions have
already been made, and you carry on.

It's just different psychology with VFR.

Your comment on training is *in theory* right on but peoples' brains
don't work that way. Also, many people did their PPLs years or decades
ago.

A couple of years ago I was flying from the UK to Switzerland. Coming
into Switzerland from France, I thought "these hills look a lot bigger
than the chart says" (the "Swiss ICAO" chart contains a mixture of
feet and metres; a new concept to most pilots who have not seen this
before; since then I have stayed with Jepp) but I pressed on; "scud
running" in retrospect. Psychologically it's the easiest option to
take.

Today I would go IFR at FL100 or whatever. But when I think of the
chunk of my life which got chucked away getting that privilege, I am
not suprised few people have it. Even the IMC Rating, a fantastic
privilege and lifesaver for UK flying, is hard to do and it's hard to
find a rentable aircraft that is suitable for real IFR.
Eeyore
2006-09-14 23:11:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter
Post by Edward
As a non flyer it is a puzzle to me why pilots stooge around in NW Wales
in cloudy conditions at less than 4,000 feet.
It happens because they have VFR privileges only, so they try really
hard to remain clear of cloud, they don't have instrument training,
and they get snookered by weather in all directions.
Isn't this often referred to as 'scud running' ?

Graham
Edward
2006-09-15 20:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter
Post by Edward
As a non flyer it is a puzzle to me why pilots stooge around in NW Wales
in cloudy conditions at less than 4,000 feet.
It happens because they have VFR privileges only, so they try really
hard to remain clear of cloud, they don't have instrument training,
and they get snookered by weather in all directions.
Occassionally it happens because of poor decisionmaking; leaving
crucial decisions till too late.
Under the VFR banner, PPL training is rather basic and you are
supposed to make relatively drastic decisions (basically, divert or
abandon altogether) in good time. These decisions have to be made on
the fly. One can understand why pilots often don't make these
decisions until it's too late.
An instrument pilot will plan a flight as IFR, at a safe level, and
fly it, cloud or no cloud (preferably above cloud), terminating with
an instrument approach. If he gets a view that is a bonus. Obviously
this is a simplification but that is the general idea.
The point is that an ad hoc transition from VFR to IFR isn't really on
unless a) you know what you are doing and preferably b) you planned
**and navigated** the flight as IFR in the first place.
Thank you for that very clear explanation. I wonder, as a rule, does a
VFR qualified pilot try to move on to IFR as a matter of progressive
training, or is the step too great or expensive so the majority don't
consider it?
--
Edward..
Peter
2006-09-16 16:57:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward
Thank you for that very clear explanation. I wonder, as a rule, does a
VFR qualified pilot try to move on to IFR as a matter of progressive
training, or is the step too great or expensive so the majority don't
consider it?
Officially, there is a clear step from VFR to IFR. For a UK PPL
holder, there are two options:

The IMC Rating. 15hrs' min training, usually more like 25, and you can
fly IFR, in UK airspace only, in Class G,F,E,D which covers most UK
low level requirements. This isn't hard to do, but you do also have to
be able to get your hands onto a suitably equipped aircraft, which
might range from easy to near impossible. You also need to fly well
above the UK PPL annual average (10-20hrs depending on who you ask) to
stay current. Around 10% of UK PPL holders, i.e. about 300/year, have
done the IMC-R at some stage. It's valid for 25 months.

The Instrument Rating. Like the IMC Rating but OK for Class A airspace
also, also valid outside the UK. 50/55hrs' min training. Quite hard to
do, especially the ground school. Valid for 1 year (annual checkride).
Very low uptake, single digits for all of UK if you count private
pilots only. For various reasons, most private pilots that do an IR do
the American (FAA) one, and fly a US-registered aircraft to get the
worldwide privileges, but that's another story. Comments on suitable
aircraft and currency as for the IMC-R.

An IMC Rated pilot should be capable of executing a mission like this
perfectly well, sitting in cloud all the way if necessary. But ideally
one needs to land at an airfield that has an instrument approach, and
there is a shortage of those in the UK.

The above is a simplification, obviously.

Unofficially, a PPL holder could learn to fly on instruments, and it
isn't hard to do at a basic level *especially* in a well equipped
airplane, but there is little point since he may as well formalise it
as the IMC Rating, and then he can land with an instrument approach,
etc, without getting into trouble.

One point is that while everybody will tell you to plan a *VFR* flight
at/above the MSA (highest point within 5nm of track, plus 1000ft,
etc), most people don't bother with this because **if truly VFR** one
isn't going to fly into a hill knowingly, is one?? But with IFR, you
could be in IMC (cloud) at any time, and you *have* to plan the flight
properly. That's why ad hoc VFR-IFR transitions are not safe unless
done right. I think it's true that most pilots doing them haven't
originally planned the flight as IFR. If you do that, you can transit
to IFR anytime. It's a great strategy for safe flying, IMHO.

Peter
FAA PPL/IR
Eeyore
2006-09-16 18:48:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter
Post by Edward
Thank you for that very clear explanation. I wonder, as a rule, does a
VFR qualified pilot try to move on to IFR as a matter of progressive
training, or is the step too great or expensive so the majority don't
consider it?
Officially, there is a clear step from VFR to IFR. For a UK PPL
The IMC Rating. 15hrs' min training, usually more like 25, and you can
fly IFR, in UK airspace only, in Class G,F,E,D which covers most UK
low level requirements.
I heard that JAA regs were going to result in the IMC rating being no longer
available.

What's the latest on that ? IMC is especially suitable for the UK and indeed
much of Northern Europe that has similar weather.


Graham
Peter
2006-09-16 19:44:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eeyore
I heard that JAA regs were going to result in the IMC rating being no longer
available.
I haven't heard of this but it appears most unlikely.

Firstly, JAA is soon dead; EASA is taking over FCL in 2007.

Secondly, it would suprise me that the CAA would simply allow anything
up to a few thousand UK pilots being stripped of their IMC privileges.
After all, this is UK airspace only. Everybody knows that many of
these pilots will continue flying in IMC as they wish. Moreover, the
UK does not provide any meaningful ATS services to IFR outside
controlled airspace, which fits in nicely with the fact that you can
fly in IMC non-radio. It would make a bit of a mess.

But then so would kicking N-reg airplanes out of the UK, and the DfT
is proposing to do just that :)

There is always a cloud on the horizon in this game. You have to enjoy
it while it lasts.
Post by Eeyore
What's the latest on that ? IMC is especially suitable for the UK and indeed
much of Northern Europe that has similar weather.
The IFR privileges of the IMC Rating are not valid outside the UK. The
skills are of course equally applicable.
solinus
2006-09-14 22:19:53 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Edward, much appreciated.

I have tried mailing directly to other authors however usually they
have modified their address and contact is not made.

I am not press but in the past I have worked on the aircraft in
question.
Edward
2006-09-16 14:11:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by solinus
Thanks Edward, much appreciated.
I have tried mailing directly to other authors however usually they
have modified their address and contact is not made.
I am not press but in the past I have worked on the aircraft in
question.
I have learned a little more from newspaper accounts so 'handle with
care'. The walker who is the eyewitness says that she heard the engine
note speed up and saw the craft climbing through the wisps of cloud. It
hit the top of a ridge running West from the Carneddau massif.

My surmise (pilots please correct me) is that they were intending to
make their way through the Ogwen valley to the East of the mountains
before setting a Southerly course for Hereford. Faced with lowering
cloud they abandoned that idea and tried to make a climbing turn to port
away from the Snowdon block on their right and hoping to clear the lower
mountains on their left and then follow the coast to the Cheshire plain
before returning South. They nearly made it. Pilot was in his 70's and
passenger 60's.

The account says that they refueled in Caernarfon but is not clear as to
whether this was a refuelling stop or if it was an out and back trip.
--
Edward..
Andy Hart
2006-09-17 02:00:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward
Pilot was in his 70's and
passenger 60's.
The other way round
Post by Edward
The account says that they refueled in Caernarfon but is not clear as to
whether this was a refuelling stop or if it was an out and back trip.
It was an "out & back" trip
--
Regards
Andy Hart (Shobdon Airfield)
solinus
2006-09-17 13:32:28 UTC
Permalink
Andy, glad to see you eventually 'got on line'
Andy Hart
2006-09-17 18:59:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by solinus
Andy, glad to see you eventually 'got on line'
HeHe :-) It took a while !!!
--
Regards
Andy Hart
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