Discussion:
Suggestions for somewhere to do residential 4 week NPPL for £5k
(too old to reply)
o***@hotmail.com
2007-05-03 16:30:48 UTC
Permalink
I've been looking at doing an intensive (N) PPL in the summer. I
reckon I can borrow £5k to do it. I don't really fancy going abroad
for it.

I've been talking to a school north of the border about it and it
looks almost viable there, anyone suggest anywhere else? Not too
fussed where in the UK mainland, as long I could do it for £5k all in.

Or am I living in cloud-cuckoo land?

Cheers,
Chris.
NoSpam
2007-05-03 17:25:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by o***@hotmail.com
I've been looking at doing an intensive (N) PPL in the summer. I
reckon I can borrow £5k to do it. I don't really fancy going abroad
for it.
I've been talking to a school north of the border about it and it
looks almost viable there, anyone suggest anywhere else? Not too
fussed where in the UK mainland, as long I could do it for £5k all in.
Or am I living in cloud-cuckoo land?
Cheers,
Chris.
Speak to Old Sarum (nr Salisbury) 01722-322525

Dave
o***@hotmail.com
2007-05-03 18:24:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by NoSpam
Post by o***@hotmail.com
I've been looking at doing an intensive (N) PPL in the summer. I
reckon I can borrow £5k to do it. I don't really fancy going abroad
for it.
I've been talking to a school north of the border about it and it
looks almost viable there, anyone suggest anywhere else? Not too
fussed where in the UK mainland, as long I could do it for £5k all in.
Or am I living in cloud-cuckoo land?
Cheers,
Chris.
Speak to Old Sarum (nr Salisbury) 01722-322525
Dave
Thanks for the suggestion, but blows the budget unfortunately. NPPL
quoted at around £4,800 plus a few extras which would tip over the £5k
without covering accommodation. For Light Plane that is - don't want
microlight
NoSpam
2007-05-03 21:36:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by NoSpam
Post by o***@hotmail.com
I've been looking at doing an intensive (N) PPL in the summer. I
reckon I can borrow £5k to do it. I don't really fancy going abroad
for it.
I've been talking to a school north of the border about it and it
looks almost viable there, anyone suggest anywhere else? Not too
fussed where in the UK mainland, as long I could do it for £5k all in.
Or am I living in cloud-cuckoo land?
Cheers,
Chris.
Speak to Old Sarum (nr Salisbury) 01722-322525
Dave
Thanks for the suggestion, but blows the budget unfortunately. NPPL
quoted at around £4,800 plus a few extras which would tip over the £5k
without covering accommodation. For Light Plane that is - don't want
microlight
I've been instructing for a long time ... it's extremely rare for
someone to reach the required standard in the minimum hours (maybe I'm
just a crap instructor ;-) ) so wherever you go (and whatever course you
do) you need to budget for more than the minimum. The actual time taken
depends on so many things including your age (sorry), your ability to
learn new tasks and to pass exams, how you "bond" with your FI, weather,
continuity ... and probably the phase of the moon!
I'm not trying to put you off, just to be realistic.

Also, don't forget that modern microlights can be very like conventional
light aircraft and there are routes to move from one to t'other. Have a
look at the C42.

A final thought - some US schools used to guarantee a "pass" for a fixed
fee (and may still do so) but just ask yourself how that can be possible
and whether they're likely to use an independent examiner in that
situation. I've seen the end result of the "guaranteed pass" schools -
people frequently need more training (when they get home) before they're
at a safe standard. Beware.

HTH
Dave
Andy McKenzie
2007-05-04 08:45:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by o***@hotmail.com
Post by NoSpam
Post by o***@hotmail.com
I've been looking at doing an intensive (N) PPL in the summer. I
reckon I can borrow £5k to do it. I don't really fancy going abroad
for it.
I've been talking to a school north of the border about it and it
looks almost viable there, anyone suggest anywhere else? Not too
fussed where in the UK mainland, as long I could do it for £5k all in.
Or am I living in cloud-cuckoo land?
Cheers,
Chris.
Speak to Old Sarum (nr Salisbury) 01722-322525
Dave
Thanks for the suggestion, but blows the budget unfortunately. NPPL
quoted at around £4,800 plus a few extras which would tip over the £5k
without covering accommodation. For Light Plane that is - don't want
microlight
I've been instructing for a long time ... it's extremely rare for someone
to reach the required standard in the minimum hours (maybe I'm just a crap
instructor ;-) ) so wherever you go (and whatever course you do) you need
to budget for more than the minimum. The actual time taken depends on so
many things including your age (sorry), your ability to learn new tasks
and to pass exams, how you "bond" with your FI, weather, continuity ...
and probably the phase of the moon!
I'm not trying to put you off, just to be realistic.
Also, don't forget that modern microlights can be very like conventional
light aircraft and there are routes to move from one to t'other. Have a
look at the C42.
A final thought - some US schools used to guarantee a "pass" for a fixed
fee (and may still do so) but just ask yourself how that can be possible
and whether they're likely to use an independent examiner in that
situation. I've seen the end result of the "guaranteed pass" schools -
people frequently need more training (when they get home) before they're
at a safe standard. Beware.
Dave
A serious question - why do most people take longer than the minimum hours
to learn? I learnt to fly nearly 30 years ago, and not in the UK, (but to a
CAA syllabus) but back then I would have said things were the other way
round. Most of my flying club colleagues got their licence in the stated
hours. Indeed it was not unknown to do your GFT and still have a few hours
flying to do to get the minimum hours. So what's changed? Is it just
airspace complexity? It can't be the aircraft complexity because in my
experience the only difference between a club trainer in 1980 and 2007 is
how faded the upholstery is! I have a nagging suspicion that it is down to a
concern in our litigious culture that the instructor has to be 120% sure at
each and every stage - not that I am blaming instructors here -its society.

[and wow - becoming a grumpy old fart sneaks up on one!]

Andy
D
2007-05-04 09:18:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy McKenzie
A serious question - why do most people take longer than the minimum hours
to learn?
Interesting question.

I dont think instructors live in fear of litigation (I instruct with Dave up
at old sarum), well I dont anyway. I just do the best I can. But for
decades the average student has taken 55 hours to qualify - average mind,
some do it in minimum and others take hundreds of hours (I kid ye not).

I knw pilots of yore would solo in five hours and then fly Spifires with
about 15 hours, but what kind of pilots were they? Mostly young of course,
which helps, but were they any good? I mean, ask yourself this question: how
good would YOU be, soloing in a Tiger Moth (or C152, or Pa 28) with 5 hours
( and mankind has not evolved that much in sixty years!!) ? Would you be
barely able to survive and flounder around the (effectivlely) open FIR or
would you be safe to be carrying my family?? I think these people were able
to take off and land then go and learn! they had no radio to contend with,
no detailed meteorology to collect, little air law to understand. Just get
in, giddy up and stay alive till tomorrow.

I also think there's a different attitude to death these days, and a serious
risk-averse attitude. imagine being sent solo at five hours - you'd crap
yourself. I mean, what if you got hurt!! But forty years ago being hurt was
par for the course of life, the type of people who could afford to fly would
probably have been falling off horses since birth.

I also have a sneaking suspicion that many people today are less
mechanically minded and less air minded. The best students are farmers - as
discovered in WW2 and still true today - because they are mechanically
minded, they understand things like "attitude" and "push this and that
happens" in a way pen pushers and computer jockies largey do not.

Finally, I think there is a stonger attitude of "professionalism" in the air
world now. When I send my (for example) tail wheel students off, I am simply
not satisfied if they can "arrive". I want smooth landings, nice approaches,
I want them to have been in, with me, cross winds onto tarmac not just
headwinds on grass. I want them to be good at three pointers and to have
practiced wheelers (and understand why the former is better). I am not
afraid of litigation, I simply don't want one of my students to end up in
GASIL or the ground for want of an hours instruction.

So, ever since the PPL was invented humans have taken, on avaerage, longer
to do it that our Tiger flying, Hun popping forebears imaginged when they
created the PPL syllabus( and extended it over the years).

To the OP though, Old Sarum will do you well, but not quite for the five
grand I should think.

Have you considered buying a plane and then renting an instructor? So long
as you wholly own the plane you can do this and it might save you a packet
in the long run. A two seater might cost you 10 to 18 grand, but then your
instructor will cost you very little on top. I'd do it for £20 an hour,
times 40 hours. You do the maths.

After training you'll be renting for over a hundred an hour - but on your
own PFA plane you'll be running at around £40 an hour.

Dave costs £21 an hour, so use me, use me.!!

Phew,

david
Andy McKenzie
2007-05-04 10:30:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
Post by Andy McKenzie
A serious question - why do most people take longer than the minimum hours
to learn?
Interesting question.
I dont think instructors live in fear of litigation (I instruct with Dave
up at old sarum), well I dont anyway. I just do the best I can. But for
decades the average student has taken 55 hours to qualify - average mind,
some do it in minimum and others take hundreds of hours (I kid ye not).
I knw pilots of yore would solo in five hours and then fly Spifires with
about 15 hours, but what kind of pilots were they? Mostly young of course,
how good would YOU be, soloing in a Tiger Moth (or C152, or Pa 28) with 5
hours ( and mankind has not evolved that much in sixty years!!) ? Would
you be barely able to survive and flounder around the (effectivlely) open
FIR or would you be safe to be carrying my family?? I think these people
were able to take off and land then go and learn! they had no radio to
contend with, no detailed meteorology to collect, little air law to
understand. Just get in, giddy up and stay alive till tomorrow.
I also think there's a different attitude to death these days, and a
serious risk-averse attitude. imagine being sent solo at five hours -
you'd crap yourself. I mean, what if you got hurt!! But forty years ago
being hurt was par for the course of life, the type of people who could
afford to fly would probably have been falling off horses since birth.
I also have a sneaking suspicion that many people today are less
mechanically minded and less air minded. The best students are farmers -
as discovered in WW2 and still true today - because they are mechanically
minded, they understand things like "attitude" and "push this and that
happens" in a way pen pushers and computer jockies largey do not.
Finally, I think there is a stonger attitude of "professionalism" in the
air world now. When I send my (for example) tail wheel students off, I am
simply not satisfied if they can "arrive". I want smooth landings, nice
approaches, I want them to have been in, with me, cross winds onto tarmac
not just headwinds on grass. I want them to be good at three pointers and
to have practiced wheelers (and understand why the former is better). I
am not afraid of litigation, I simply don't want one of my students to end
up in GASIL or the ground for want of an hours instruction.
So, ever since the PPL was invented humans have taken, on avaerage, longer
to do it that our Tiger flying, Hun popping forebears imaginged when they
created the PPL syllabus( and extended it over the years).
To the OP though, Old Sarum will do you well, but not quite for the five
grand I should think.
Have you considered buying a plane and then renting an instructor? So long
as you wholly own the plane you can do this and it might save you a packet
in the long run. A two seater might cost you 10 to 18 grand, but then
your instructor will cost you very little on top. I'd do it for £20 an
hour, times 40 hours. You do the maths.
After training you'll be renting for over a hundred an hour - but on your
own PFA plane you'll be running at around £40 an hour.
Dave costs £21 an hour, so use me, use me.!!
Phew,
david
David,

Thanks for that considered reply. I understand what you mean about not
wanting to feature in GASIL, although to an extent that's because if not
worried about personal litigation I guess we are all, and should be, worried
about 'another accident - those little planes should be banned'.

The air cadets used to solo glider students in Sedbergs or Tutors'. after
two or three days of intensive instruction, with a total flight time
measured in minutes rather than hours. We were only capable of handling a
winch launch, close circuit and a landing, but we were capable, and I don't
remember anyone killing themselves - we were of course rather young!

I'm sure you are right that for decades it has taken 55 hours or so to learn
(although I'd love to see hard stats on this). I will take issue with your
comment re some of the ground school skills. I imagine that the average 5
hour Tiger Moth pilot knew more about meteorology, airframes and engines
than the average multiple choice answering modern pilot can shake a stick
at!

Andy (older and grumpier by the hour)
D
2007-05-04 14:26:35 UTC
Permalink
I imagine that the average 5
Post by Andy McKenzie
hour Tiger Moth pilot knew more about meteorology, airframes and engines
than the average multiple choice answering modern pilot can shake a stick
at!
Andy (older and grumpier by the hour)
Well, he might have done, I'm not sure. But I guess when you have to mend
father's car every day and hand crank it every time one's driver takes one
out, one learns a thing or two about engines!

I was pondering other stuff too, during the day, and of course the whole
essence of navigation has changed: "see that town in the distance? Well
that's Croydon old bean" And there's nothing but fields in between. And if
you get lost, well, turn south till you hit the sea, turn left and fly till
you find the drome. Better yet, land anywhere, ask the farmer, who will of
course be DELIGHTED to welcome you because just everyone is airminded, and
he'll tell you where you are! Easy.

No airspace worries, no jets, no noise, no Rule 5, just no hassle.

It really must have taken so much stress out of it.

I don't suppose many of the early pilots learnt at the rate of an hour a
fortnight either! I recently had an intensive student at old sarum and the
progress he made in a week (he only managed 8 hours due weather) startled
him to say the least! Without a doubt had I had a few more hours with him
he would have solo'd.

But would I send him up in a Spit..? ;o)

david
Andy McKenzie
2007-05-04 15:45:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy McKenzie
I imagine that the average 5
Post by Andy McKenzie
hour Tiger Moth pilot knew more about meteorology, airframes and engines
than the average multiple choice answering modern pilot can shake a stick
at!
Andy (older and grumpier by the hour)
Well, he might have done, I'm not sure. But I guess when you have to mend
father's car every day and hand crank it every time one's driver takes one
out, one learns a thing or two about engines!
I was pondering other stuff too, during the day, and of course the whole
essence of navigation has changed: "see that town in the distance? Well
that's Croydon old bean" And there's nothing but fields in between. And
if you get lost, well, turn south till you hit the sea, turn left and fly
till you find the drome. Better yet, land anywhere, ask the farmer, who
will of course be DELIGHTED to welcome you because just everyone is
airminded, and he'll tell you where you are! Easy.
No airspace worries, no jets, no noise, no Rule 5, just no hassle.
It really must have taken so much stress out of it.
I don't suppose many of the early pilots learnt at the rate of an hour a
fortnight either! I recently had an intensive student at old sarum and
the progress he made in a week (he only managed 8 hours due weather)
startled him to say the least! Without a doubt had I had a few more hours
with him he would have solo'd.
But would I send him up in a Spit..? ;o)
david
I guess that's the sort of environment I learned in (at least the airspace
worries and hassle components). But I still reckon that the 'old timers'
skill levels were of a high standard. They would have learned a real
discipline in their planning and flying that our comfortable radio/VOR/GPS
equipped pilots can at times pay lip service to. Not to say that I haven't
met many pilots with excellent skills in these areas, just lots of others
who like me have probably got a bit complacent.

I've flown a bit in developing countries and there's something about a chart
(and landscape) with sod all landmarks in hundred mile lumps that
concentrates your navigational mind, at least on the minutiae of holding a
heading, a speed and proper wind drift etc. The sense of relief when a town
emerges from the desert haze is something else! Several years later I tried
my hand at 1930s style Instrument Flying, flying real IMC amongst
clouds-with-rocks where the only radio aids were commercial AM stations. It
again gave a slight sense of how good the early aviators were (and they
didn't have the option of a diversion to an airfield, however distant, with
luxuries like VOR and ILS).

Andy
NoSpam
2007-05-04 19:21:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy McKenzie
Post by Andy McKenzie
I imagine that the average 5
Post by Andy McKenzie
hour Tiger Moth pilot knew more about meteorology, airframes and engines
than the average multiple choice answering modern pilot can shake a stick
at!
Andy (older and grumpier by the hour)
Well, he might have done, I'm not sure. But I guess when you have to mend
father's car every day and hand crank it every time one's driver takes one
out, one learns a thing or two about engines!
I was pondering other stuff too, during the day, and of course the whole
essence of navigation has changed: "see that town in the distance? Well
that's Croydon old bean" And there's nothing but fields in between. And
if you get lost, well, turn south till you hit the sea, turn left and fly
till you find the drome. Better yet, land anywhere, ask the farmer, who
will of course be DELIGHTED to welcome you because just everyone is
airminded, and he'll tell you where you are! Easy.
No airspace worries, no jets, no noise, no Rule 5, just no hassle.
It really must have taken so much stress out of it.
I don't suppose many of the early pilots learnt at the rate of an hour a
fortnight either! I recently had an intensive student at old sarum and
the progress he made in a week (he only managed 8 hours due weather)
startled him to say the least! Without a doubt had I had a few more hours
with him he would have solo'd.
But would I send him up in a Spit..? ;o)
david
I guess that's the sort of environment I learned in (at least the airspace
worries and hassle components). But I still reckon that the 'old timers'
skill levels were of a high standard. They would have learned a real
discipline in their planning and flying that our comfortable radio/VOR/GPS
equipped pilots can at times pay lip service to. Not to say that I haven't
met many pilots with excellent skills in these areas, just lots of others
who like me have probably got a bit complacent.
I've flown a bit in developing countries and there's something about a chart
(and landscape) with sod all landmarks in hundred mile lumps that
concentrates your navigational mind, at least on the minutiae of holding a
heading, a speed and proper wind drift etc. The sense of relief when a town
emerges from the desert haze is something else! Several years later I tried
my hand at 1930s style Instrument Flying, flying real IMC amongst
clouds-with-rocks where the only radio aids were commercial AM stations. It
again gave a slight sense of how good the early aviators were (and they
didn't have the option of a diversion to an airfield, however distant, with
luxuries like VOR and ILS).
Andy
Not much I can add to this discussion. For various reasons (including
changes in society's wealth and expectations) people are (generally)
less mechanically able, airspace is (generally) more complex, penalties
are (rumoured to be) a worry, and people (sometimes) seem to expect to
be able to acquire the skills by osmosis rather than hard work and
concentration ... no insult or upset intended. :-)

The fear of litigation has never affected my actions but a desire not to
read about one of my studes doing something dumb (whether terminal or
not) does affect my decisions and actions.

Dave
o***@hotmail.com
2007-05-04 15:17:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
To the OP though, Old Sarum will do you well, but not quite for the five
grand I should think.
Have you considered buying a plane and then renting an instructor? So long
as you wholly own the plane you can do this and it might save you a packet
in the long run. A two seater might cost you 10 to 18 grand, but then your
instructor will cost you very little on top. I'd do it for £20 an hour,
times 40 hours. You do the maths.
After training you'll be renting for over a hundred an hour - but on your
own PFA plane you'll be running at around £40 an hour.
Dave costs £21 an hour, so use me, use me.!!
Phew,
david
I love the idea, but no way on earth could I raise the £10-18k
unfortunately!

I'll agree, it's a very cost effective way of training, if only I
could find a free plane!

Cheers
D
2007-05-04 16:32:49 UTC
Permalink
I'll agree, it's a very cost effective way of training, if only I
could find a free plane!

Cheers



In that case then I really would recommend borrowing about 7 rather than
five grand and doing as you say, book in for a concentrated course.

old sarum is a good place by the way.

Oh yes, wherever you go, DO NOT, repeat NOT give them all your dosh before
you fly! Pay for what you have done at the end of the day / week, but NOT
NOT NOT in advance! Anywhere, ever, whatever they say!!!!

David
PeterD
2007-05-05 06:13:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
Oh yes, wherever you go, DO NOT, repeat NOT give them all your dosh before
you fly! Pay for what you have done at the end of the day / week, but NOT
NOT NOT in advance! Anywhere, ever, whatever they say!!!!
Seconded, if from a slightly different discipline. My nice-but-naive
friend gave me a paragliding course for a present a few years ago. The
deal was that you gave them (I'd have to dig around for the name -
French bloke, paramotor champion) two thousand pounds, the instructor
trained you up and at the end you had seventeen hundred towards a
paraglider if you buy from him.

In hindsight, a fairly obvious "I'm desperate for cashflow" scheme.

He went bust between receiving the two grand and my first lesson, so I'm
still earthbound.
--
Pd
Alt Beer
2007-05-05 11:15:21 UTC
Permalink
(snipped)
To the OP though, Old Sarum will do you well, but not quite for the five
grand I should think.
Have you considered buying a plane and then renting an instructor? So long
as you wholly own the plane you can do this and it might save you a packet
in the long run. A two seater might cost you 10 to 18 grand, but then your
instructor will cost you very little on top. I'd do it for £20 an hour,
times 40 hours. You do the maths.
After training you'll be renting for over a hundred an hour - but on your
own PFA plane you'll be running at around £40 an hour.
Dave costs £21 an hour, so use me, use me.!!
Phew,
david
David, is there any cheap accommodation near Old Sarum? I have about
30 hours and am looking for somewhere to do an intensive couple of weeks
to complete.

Do you happen to know how much landing fees and touch and go's cost for
C152?

Thanks,
John
D
2007-05-05 22:01:34 UTC
Permalink
John

cheap B and B is either always available or never available in Saisbury -
depends on what you mean by cheap! Try the Salisbury T I office. Or call
the club on 01722 322 525

Re the circuits and bumps - if you join the club (google Old Sarum Flying
Club for rates etc) then they are free. If you enrolled to complete the PPL
you have started you get a yewars free circuits and bumps with your
membership fee.

HTH


david
david
Post by Alt Beer
(snipped)
To the OP though, Old Sarum will do you well, but not quite for the five
grand I should think.
Have you considered buying a plane and then renting an instructor? So long
as you wholly own the plane you can do this and it might save you a packet
in the long run. A two seater might cost you 10 to 18 grand, but then
your
instructor will cost you very little on top. I'd do it for £20 an hour,
times 40 hours. You do the maths.
After training you'll be renting for over a hundred an hour - but on your
own PFA plane you'll be running at around £40 an hour.
Dave costs £21 an hour, so use me, use me.!!
Phew,
david
David, is there any cheap accommodation near Old Sarum? I have about
30 hours and am looking for somewhere to do an intensive couple of weeks
to complete.
Do you happen to know how much landing fees and touch and go's cost for
C152?
Thanks,
John
Alt Beer
2007-05-06 08:09:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by D
cheap B and B is either always available or never available in Saisbury -
depends on what you mean by cheap! Try the Salisbury T I office. Or call
the club on 01722 322 525
Re the circuits and bumps - if you join the club (google Old Sarum Flying
Club for rates etc) then they are free. If you enrolled to complete the PPL
you have started you get a yewars free circuits and bumps with your
membership fee.
HTH
david
David, what is the TI Office?

Many thanks for the info.

John
D
2007-05-06 12:16:01 UTC
Permalink
Tourist Information.

http://www.salisbury.gov.uk/leisure/tics/salisbury-tic.asp


david
Post by Alt Beer
Post by D
cheap B and B is either always available or never available in Saisbury -
depends on what you mean by cheap! Try the Salisbury T I office. Or call
the club on 01722 322 525
Re the circuits and bumps - if you join the club (google Old Sarum Flying
Club for rates etc) then they are free. If you enrolled to complete the
PPL
Post by D
you have started you get a yewars free circuits and bumps with your
membership fee.
HTH
david
David, what is the TI Office?
Many thanks for the info.
John
Alt Beer
2007-05-06 12:22:20 UTC
Permalink
Thanks David...... John
Post by D
Tourist Information.
http://www.salisbury.gov.uk/leisure/tics/salisbury-tic.asp
david
Post by Alt Beer
Post by D
cheap B and B is either always available or never available in Saisbury -
depends on what you mean by cheap! Try the Salisbury T I office. Or call
the club on 01722 322 525
Re the circuits and bumps - if you join the club (google Old Sarum Flying
Club for rates etc) then they are free. If you enrolled to complete the
PPL
Post by D
you have started you get a yewars free circuits and bumps with your
membership fee.
HTH
david
David, what is the TI Office?
Many thanks for the info.
John
Peter
2007-05-04 21:08:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by NoSpam
A final thought - some US schools used to guarantee a "pass" for a fixed
fee (and may still do so) but just ask yourself how that can be possible
and whether they're likely to use an independent examiner in that
situation. I've seen the end result of the "guaranteed pass" schools -
people frequently need more training (when they get home) before they're
at a safe standard. Beware.
I've never heard of a "guaranteed pass". Rest assured that you will
fail a US checkride if you are not up to standard. They can guarantee
a pass like a driving school can - everybody will pass eventually.

Learning in the USA is very different to learning in the UK. Take the
typical case of a UK student going over there, versus his/her doing it
here:

1) time allocation

US: get your head down and fly solidly for a few weeks - rapid
learning

UK: fit it in between loads of distractions, family/business, hassles,
etc, over 1 year or more. If a UK student parked up in a caravan next
to the school (having picked a period of super weather first,
somehow...) and lived and slept flying, he'd get his PPL done in 4
weeks too, but almost nobody does this here.

2) money

US: you already have the budget sorted, otherwise you would not be
going there! Anyway, you won't get the US visa if you even look a bit
skint.

UK: you probably don't have the budget sorted up front; IME many PPL
students have just enough for the next 1 or 2 lessons and then they
have to stop and save up some more. With few exceptions, the UK scene
is skint.

3) age

US: Britons going to the USA tend (from what I saw over there) be in
the 20-40 age range

UK: Average PPL student age is a good 45-50 (some CAA figures on their
website) and many are a lot older than that.

This is important because the older you are the longer it takes to
learn (I took 66hrs at age 43 and that was about average at that
school) and also the older people tend to be business/professional
types who simply do not tolerate the rather more "quirky
personalities" one finds around many schools, and this doesn't help
the learning rate...

4) weather

US: weather is either very good (Arizona/SoCal) or fairly predictable
(Florida)

UK: weather is usually poor; occassionally you get lucky but it's no
good if you run out of money after a week of solid training! My PPL
took 1 year and there was a 90 day period when I booked every day to
fly and got just 3 flights in.

5) organisation

US: schools have high utilisation and are organised to avoid downtime
- where I did my IR they had near-24-hour servicing, a bowser went
round all parked aircraft during the night, topping them off with
fuel, so everything was ready to roll at 8am

UK: airplanes go "tech" regularly and then somebody goes off to sort
out where to get it fixed, on the cheap if possible

6) instructor quality

This is going to be ultra controversial here! But, *IME*, the UK scene
is mostly ATPL hour builders, whereas in the USA there are more long
term instructors. They do have hour builders out there too but the
ones I met were much more professional than ones I met here in the UK.
This can at best be a generalisation but overall it will make a
difference to the figures.


I have never seen data on how long it took to get a PPL say 50 years
ago, but it was a different world then:

1) different attitude to risk - there was a "can do" attitude, and
accidents were an accepted risk. Incidentally I don't think the WW2
fighter pilot going solo in 15hrs is a useful analogy because these
were young men, the best around, and a far cry from the people doing a
PPL today who are on average about 3x older. Some of today's students
are ready to go solo in say 5 hours, too.

2) virtually no controlled airspace, so navigation wasn't an issue BUT
the methods used then are still taught today as the primary method, so
it's not suprising it doesn't hack it.

3) many more airfields - look how many ex airfields there are in say
Sussex/Hants - they were all over the place then. Now there are just a
few where you can just turn up. So there were more options for a
landing if something was not going right - plenty of stories about WW2
fighter pilots getting lost and flying around the s. east UK until
they found an airfield; you couldn't do that today.

4) different audience - decades ago, flying was done as an exciting
sport by wealthy ambitious and determined young men; occassionally
women. Today, these types are doing something else, and the training
scene consists mostly of keen but barely solvent people, which is fine
but you can't expect them to progress as fast when they are constantly
strapped for cash and/or time.

5) much less theoretical knowledge. Even the CAA IR was far easier
20-30 years ago compared to today's 2-3 feet of paper in the ATPL
ground school. I know enough people who did their IR back then. The
PPL has no mandatory ground school element but the exams have to be
passed somehow, which takes yet more time.


One final point: the cost of doing a PPL is not a lot compared to the
ongoing cost of flying, so if exceeding say a £5k budget is a problem
right now, the person won't be flying much afterwards.
D
2007-05-05 08:20:41 UTC
Permalink
Some good points here.

I would have to point out that:
at old sarum we have a very high availability rate. I can remember two
ocassions in the lasty six months when an a/c went tech with students
waiting - one was a warrior I was in and the batt was flat so we hopped into
another a/c, and the second was a broken axle on a Cub. We only have one cub
so the stude was stuffed unfortunately.
We have a large fleet aand our own mainainence, so student very very rarely
lose out.

Whilst we do have some ATPL hours builders most of our instructors are
either career instructors well into their forties or, like me, airline
pilots having fun. On the whole our students, I think, get exceptional
vaalue for money...and I speak as a long time PPL, ATPL, ex-graduate teacher
and now FI.

david
Alt Beer
2007-05-03 21:47:51 UTC
Permalink
The May 2007 edition of Pilot magazine has a 60 page supplement "Where to
fly guide". In it is a listing "Your complete guide to UK and overseas
flying clubs and schools" broken down into counties. For example Clacton
Aero Club NPPL courses from £3,452 there are others around the country.
Look in W H Smiths or Pilot mag for a copy.



<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
I've been looking at doing an intensive (N) PPL in the summer. I
reckon I can borrow £5k to do it. I don't really fancy going abroad
for it.

I've been talking to a school north of the border about it and it
looks almost viable there, anyone suggest anywhere else? Not too
fussed where in the UK mainland, as long I could do it for £5k all in.

Or am I living in cloud-cuckoo land?

Cheers,
Chris.
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