That road tolling that will never happen...

[Greg]

Well it's happening, black boxes and all:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5249538.stm

Greg

[Peter]

Post by Greg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5249538.stm

On the big roads, that is to be half expected eventually. That can be
done with transponders in cars, and your credit card is debited as you
trigger the roadside unit.

Or even with number plate recognition cameras. I wonder why the
proposal doesn't use those? Perhaps a lot of people use faked plates
to beat it, and one needs only a few false identifications to create
havoc from those wrongly accused. How does this work in London then?

But nationally, on all roads, is something else.

[Simon Hobson]

Post by Peter
Perhaps a lot of people use faked plates
to beat it, and one needs only a few false identifications to create
havoc from those wrongly accused. How does this work in London then?

It's off topic for uk.rec.aviation, but ...

You are presumed guilty until proven innocent ! If your plate is spotted and
you don't pay the daily charge (which you won't if it some b***ard using your
plate) then you automatically get a penalty notice on the doormat for
something like 100 quid. If it wasn't you then you have to contest the charge
- effectively prove that it wasn't you.

There was an article in the paper not long ago about someone who's never even
been to london, but someone is using her plates and she gets the hassle. Not
only that, but the fact that she's already successfully contested dozens of
penalties doesn't seem to trigger anything, they still send her one for every
time her plates are spotted and it costs her a fair bit of time and money.

It's reconed that they make quite a bit from the the penaties - can't find
somewhere to pay your charge at 9pm ? Tough, if it aint paid by midnight then
that's an extra 100 quid (or whatever) thank you very much !

It's a wonderful system from the revenue raising point of view. You can label
any objectors as child murdering sociopaths, and you can put a system in
place that means you don't have to do any work - just send out the penalty
notices and let the innocent do all the work of proving it.


I think you can perhaps tell what I think of the Kengestion charge !

I suggets that if you want to continue the thread then you join the trolls,
bigots, and assorted other loons in uk.transport.

[Greg]

Post by Simon Hobson
It's off topic for uk.rec.aviation, but ...

Yes but there was an extensive thread about it recently so I thought it
reasonable to let people know what the government is doing. I'm not going to
get into if it will work, how it will be evaded etc as it's pointless, the
fact is they are doing it 8-(.

Greg

[Andrew998]

Post by Greg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5249538.stm

There's a huge difference between some leaked info and any action. While I
don't doubt this could happen at some point in the future it is now standard
practice for the government to leak this sort of idea so they can judge the
reaction before actually doing anything. It may or may not become a bill and
the timescales could be anywhere between now and never.

[Greg]

Post by Andrew998

Post by Greg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5249538.stm

There's a huge difference between some leaked info and any action. While I
don't doubt this could happen at some point in the future it is now standard
practice for the government to leak this sort of idea so they can judge the
reaction before actually doing anything. It may or may not become a bill and
the timescales could be anywhere between now and never.

Very true, they leak everything potentially controversial to test the water,
so let's see if there is a huge outcry sufficient to tell them they can't
get away with what is primarily a new source of tax revenue, but considering
they first suggested it months ago and there hasn't been any real protest I
won't hold my breath 8-)

Greg

[Simon Hobson]

Post by Andrew998
There's a huge difference between some leaked info and any action. While I
don't doubt this could happen at some point in the future it is now standard
practice for the government to leak this sort of idea so they can judge the
reaction before actually doing anything. It may or may not become a bill and
the timescales could be anywhere between now and never.

You missed a bit - the old tactic of suggesting (outher outright or via
leaks) something really unpopular and then watering it down because "you're
listening to public opinion". Of course, you never wanted what was proposed,
only what you finally watered it down to and got through with people happy to
accept it as "it could have been so much worse".

[karel]

If it really happens, it will be one more reason
for not visiting the UK anymore.
The previous one being the high cost of car fuel.
A pity though, I always loved to visit merry old England,
not to mention the rest of your island kingdom.
But my financial means have their limits
and if your government really wishes to scare off
foreign visitors, well then so be it.

KA

[pietro]

Post by karel
If it really happens, it will be one more reason
for not visiting the UK anymore.

It doesn't stop you from visiting France, Italy and Spain.
They've had road tolls for years and it works very well!
By the way the price of fuel in those countries isn't much
different to the UK.

The Autobahns of Germany and Motorways of Britain are the most
constantly congested roads I've ever used. It's time to get some
of the heavy stuff back on rails.

P.

[Peter]

Post by pietro
The Autobahns of Germany and Motorways of Britain are the most
constantly congested roads I've ever used. It's time to get some
of the heavy stuff back on rails.

Or fly :)

I routinely consider flying at about 150 miles+, or less if it is over
countryside with bad roads.

In the UK, it's easy to spend 10 hours driving 150 miles. Bad roads, a
load of lorries, a crash or two blocking the road.

No wonder the commercial operators, and many sales people, subcribe to
Trafficmaster or some similar service. But that works only if you
stick to major roads, where Trafficmaster has the cameras.

[gAiL]

Post by pietro
The Autobahns of Germany and Motorways of Britain are the most
constantly congested roads I've ever used. It's time to get some
of the heavy stuff back on rails.

here bl**dy here!

G

[gAiL]

Post by gAiL

Post by pietro
It's time to get some
of the heavy stuff back on rails.

here bl**dy here!

The only problem is that too many politicians have vested interests in road
haulage businesses so I don't think we'll be seeing this too soon, even
though it's a perfectly good idea.

An alternative might be to move heavy road transport to night movements
instead thus freeing the roads for ordinary motorists during the day. Or,
perhaps we should just go back to using the canals instead.

G

[Mike Lindsay]

Post by gAiL

Post by pietro
The Autobahns of Germany and Motorways of Britain are the most
constantly congested roads I've ever used. It's time to get some
of the heavy stuff back on rails.

here bl**dy here!
G

Yebbut, are the railways less congested? How often to you get turfed off
a train because of some technological problem, like the locomotive
breaking down, or lines falling North of Grantham?

[Greg]

Post by Mike Lindsay

Post by gAiL

Post by pietro
The Autobahns of Germany and Motorways of Britain are the most
constantly congested roads I've ever used. It's time to get some
of the heavy stuff back on rails.

here bl**dy here!
G

Yebbut, are the railways less congested? How often to you get turfed off
a train because of some technological problem, like the locomotive
breaking down, or lines falling North of Grantham?

Clearly the railways could make a huge difference, not only to congestion
but to pollution, the trouble is that the infrastructure has been decimated
over the years with line closures and 4 track main lines reduced to 2. The 4
tracks were there to allow slow freight on 2 and fast passenger trains on
the others and without them freight is just slows everything down. So there
would have to be a staggering investment in new track and facilities to make
it work.

Greg

[pietro]

Greg schrieb:
So there

Post by Greg
would have to be a staggering investment in new track and facilities to make
it work.

The question is: How much is it costing us at the moment in lost
time, thousands of vehicles standing in endless rows burning fuel
that is becoming more expensive by the minute?
It's rather like the lobby for cigarette advertising. Their loss
of revenue is nothing in comparison to the costs incurred nursing
all those, whose lungs have been damaged by tobacco.
P

[Greg]

Post by pietro
The question is: How much is it costing us at the moment in lost
time, thousands of vehicles standing in endless rows burning fuel
that is becoming more expensive by the minute?

Very true, if you look at the whole picture and put the country first,
but of course governments don't!. As far as they're concerned it's
costing industry which is OK because it's not the government's money,
but the investment needed to make the railways viable would have to
come from government so they would have to raise taxes to pay for it.

When you consider that the railways have always had the largest
potential to swallow money of any nationalised industry except the NHS,
and the public is now in love with their cars and hates public
transport, can you see any government piling on taxes only to see it
all disappear into the railways? It's far more likely that they will
promise to spend money or roads as that will directly please the
majority of voters...

Greg

[Peter]

Post by Greg
When you consider that the railways have always had the largest
potential to swallow money of any nationalised industry except the NHS,
and the public is now in love with their cars and hates public
transport, can you see any government piling on taxes only to see it
all disappear into the railways? It's far more likely that they will
promise to spend money or roads as that will directly please the
majority of voters...

I think there is a deeper problem which affects all the old "national"
enterprises like the railways.

In any population there is a large percentage of individuals who do as
little as possible. Obviously most of them - those that aren't living
off the DSS - have to get a job somewhere, and most end up swallowed
in big organisations where nobody notices. Most would never survive in
smaller businesses, which tend to be more closely managed.

So it doesn't matter what one wants to do with the railways; nothing
will ever actually happen. Many decades ago the system worked OK, but
only through employing a vast number of low paid people, a lot fewer
people had cars, and everybody had lower standards and expectations.
Today, it is probably impossible for any govt to do anything with that
business. They can put a seasoned and very capable executive, with a
proven track record of turning businesses around, in charge of it but
before you know it his job and objective has been compromised and
undermined by just about everybody lower down. This is the problem
with turning around the old national companies - they all contain a
huge number of people who will sabotage any change. Today, it's
illegal to sack people just because they are "difficult". It can be
done, and is widely done, but you have to be very clever about it, it
sometimes costs a big payoff, and it could never be done in a big
business. So they just plod on.

The Post Office is another example. They have totally and completely
screwed up on the vast express package business which has been taken
over by UPS, DHL, Omega, Businesspost, you name it, all charging silly
money for delivering packages (reasonably) reliably. The PO has the
network but they washed their hands of it, through silly pricing above
a certain weight (anybody seen at the Special Delivery price jump
above 2kg??). This is stupidity on an unimaginable scale, running for
many years.

The railways are managed stupidly. One doesn't need extra track to
carry freight. Most railways in the densely populated south are just
the same # of lines they've had since victorian times. They just fail
to be innovative. They could easily run an express service, door to
door, by doing deals with local delivery services, with same-day
options easily implemented by taking the package to the local station
(same-day is incredibly expensive if using a normal courier). They had
Red Star but washed their hands of it when the competition appeared.

[Steve Firth]

Post by Peter
The Post Office is another example. They have totally and completely
screwed up on the vast express package business

Oddly enough, my wife runs a small business which despatches large numbers
of express packets. We've tried lots of companies and the Post Office is
the one that works reliably, quickly and at the lowest cost.

Also unlike the fuckwits who run the other services the Post Office finds
the delivery address every single time.

[Peter]

Post by Steve Firth
Oddly enough, my wife runs a small business which despatches large numbers
of express packets. We've tried lots of companies and the Post Office is
the one that works reliably, quickly and at the lowest cost.

For me too. It is the larger packages they have walked away from, for
no apparent reason.

[Steve Firth]

Post by Peter

Post by Steve Firth
Oddly enough, my wife runs a small business which despatches large numbers
of express packets. We've tried lots of companies and the Post Office is
the one that works reliably, quickly and at the lowest cost.

For me too. It is the larger packages they have walked away from, for
no apparent reason.

They will take up to 30kg in a single package. Any larger and you need to
subdivide into multiple 30Kg units. This means that they can't do workgroup
printers which don't breakdown into units, but the same restriction is
common to all carriers. Above 30Kg in a single box and you're really into
pallets.

[Edward]

Post by Steve Firth

Post by Peter

Post by Steve Firth
Oddly enough, my wife runs a small business which despatches large numbers
of express packets. We've tried lots of companies and the Post Office is
the one that works reliably, quickly and at the lowest cost.

For me too. It is the larger packages they have walked away from, for
no apparent reason.

They will take up to 30kg in a single package. Any larger and you need to
subdivide into multiple 30Kg units. This means that they can't do workgroup
printers which don't breakdown into units, but the same restriction is
common to all carriers. Above 30Kg in a single box and you're really into
pallets.

I am quite a tall chap and have an extra long bed, ordered when I got
married. 20 years later the mattress needed replacing so Pat ordered a
foam one, in effect a kingsize with nine inches extra length. It came
with our regular post in the little red van. Postie did ask if there
was anyone to help him deliver it from road to door tho'. :*)

I guess it was well under 30kg but was terribly unwieldy.

[Peter]

Post by Steve Firth
They will take up to 30kg in a single package. Any larger and you need to
subdivide into multiple 30Kg units. This means that they can't do workgroup
printers which don't breakdown into units, but the same restriction is
common to all carriers. Above 30Kg in a single box and you're really into
pallets.

Royal Mail won't do this. Their very good Special Delivery service
goes up to 2kg and after that, with a massive price hike, up to 10kg.

Above that, it is a bunch of much less reliable people at Parcelforce,
the old royal mail parcels division which was split off. Parcelforce
is such a joke that few businesses use it. The old Parcel Post was
used because it was dirt cheap but it isn't anymore, and is very
unreliable. That's why so much "package" business has gone to the
couriers, despite them being very expensive.

[Steve Firth]

Post by Edward

Post by Steve Firth

Post by Peter

Post by Steve Firth
Oddly enough, my wife runs a small business which despatches large numbers
of express packets. We've tried lots of companies and the Post Office is
the one that works reliably, quickly and at the lowest cost.

For me too. It is the larger packages they have walked away from, for
no apparent reason.

They will take up to 30kg in a single package. Any larger and you need to
subdivide into multiple 30Kg units. This means that they can't do workgroup
printers which don't breakdown into units, but the same restriction is
common to all carriers. Above 30Kg in a single box and you're really into
pallets.

I am quite a tall chap and have an extra long bed, ordered when I got
married. 20 years later the mattress needed replacing so Pat ordered a
foam one, in effect a kingsize with nine inches extra length. It came
with our regular post in the little red van. Postie did ask if there
was anyone to help him deliver it from road to door tho'. :*)
I guess it was well under 30kg but was terribly unwieldy.

But soon it will have to be no bigger than A5 and thin enough to slide
through the average gap in most people's front teeth or the PO won't take
it. That is if I understand the letter I got in the post this week
correctly.

[Peter]

Post by Steve Firth
But soon it will have to be no bigger than A5 and thin enough to slide
through the average gap in most people's front teeth or the PO won't take
it. That is if I understand the letter I got in the post this week
correctly.

Clearly this business growth strategy makes the Royal Mail chief
executive wholly qualified to run UK General Aviation :)

[N***@easily.co.uk]

Post by pietro

Post by karel
If it really happens, it will be one more reason
for not visiting the UK anymore.

It doesn't stop you from visiting France, Italy and Spain.
They've had road tolls for years and it works very well!
By the way the price of fuel in those countries isn't much
different to the UK.

I think you will find Spain was around 60p/L in March 2006 when we
were much higher!

[Andrew998]

Post by N***@easily.co.uk

Post by pietro

Post by karel
If it really happens, it will be one more reason
for not visiting the UK anymore.

It doesn't stop you from visiting France, Italy and Spain.
They've had road tolls for years and it works very well!
By the way the price of fuel in those countries isn't much
different to the UK.

I think you will find Spain was around 60p/L in March 2006 when we
were much higher!

Not according to this:

http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/eupetrolprices/default.asp

Yes Spain is cheaper but not that much.

[gAiL]

Post by Andrew998
http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/eupetrolprices/default.asp
Yes Spain is cheaper but not that much.

According to this, we are about 30euro p/ltr more expensive that most of EU.

G

[Andrew998]

Post by gAiL

Post by Andrew998
http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/eupetrolprices/default.asp
Yes Spain is cheaper but not that much.

According to this, we are about 30euro p/ltr more expensive that most of EU.

Look again. Not significantly cheaper than Germany, Belgium, Netherlands,
Italy, France, Portugal....

I think 'most of the EU' might be overstating it!

And Spain, at 1.029, is nowhere near the 60c quoted that prompted my reply.

[Steve Firth]

Post by Greg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5249538.stm

It's a government dream, the only problem for them is that almost every
objective study shows that road tolling would make congestion worse.

[Greg]

Post by Steve Firth

Post by Greg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5249538.stm

It's a government dream, the only problem for them is that almost every
objective study shows that road tolling would make congestion worse.

I doubt if they would actually consider that a problem, tolling has little
to do with reducing congestion, it's primarily about raising revenue with
snooping as a nice little bonus.
Greg