This years dawn to dusk

[David Perry]

I'm thinking of doing the D2D this year. The theme my friend and I are
looking at is "follies", but I wonder if there's anything better or more
interesting around southern england that might make a more exciting D2D
trawl. Anyone got any ideas??

david

[pietro]

Post by David Perry
I'm thinking of doing the D2D this year. The theme my friend and I are
looking at is "follies", but I wonder if there's anything better or more
interesting around southern england that might make a more exciting D2D
trawl. Anyone got any ideas??
david

Yes - France. You'll find it all around southern England.

Drop off at LFPL or LFPN and visit the Crazy Horse in Paris.

You won't regret it

Champagne and show - 110 Euros - worth every cent, but book early. The
place is full of PPLs

P.

[David Perry]

Hmm, technically I suppose France is not all around Southern England,
but laterally offset to the south. And whether a documanted visit to le
Chevaux Gaga would be acceptable to the dawn to Dusk committee is open
to question. But I accept that as a project it would be most
satisfactory! I appreciate the input!!

D

Post by pietro

Post by David Perry
I'm thinking of doing the D2D this year. The theme my friend and I are
looking at is "follies", but I wonder if there's anything better or more
interesting around southern england that might make a more exciting D2D
trawl. Anyone got any ideas??
david

Yes - France. You'll find it all around southern England.
Drop off at LFPL or LFPN and visit the Crazy Horse in Paris.
You won't regret it
Champagne and show - 110 Euros - worth every cent, but book early. The
place is full of PPLs
P.

[pietro]

Post by David Perry
Hmm, technically I suppose France is not all around Southern England,
but laterally offset to the south. And whether a documanted visit to le
Chevaux Gaga would be acceptable to the dawn to Dusk committee is open
to question. But I accept that as a project it would be most
satisfactory! I appreciate the input!!
D

Post by pietro

Post by David Perry
I'm thinking of doing the D2D this year. The theme my friend and I

are

Post by pietro

Post by David Perry
looking at is "follies", but I wonder if there's anything better or

more

Post by pietro

Post by David Perry
interesting around southern england that might make a more exciting

D2D

Post by pietro

Post by David Perry
trawl. Anyone got any ideas??
david

Yes - France. You'll find it all around southern England.
Drop off at LFPL or LFPN and visit the Crazy Horse in Paris.
You won't regret it
Champagne and show - 110 Euros - worth every cent, but book early. The
place is full of PPLs
P.

In that case you'd better make Dusk-til-Dawn

P

[VinMan]

Post by pietro
Drop off at LFPL or LFPN and visit the Crazy Horse in Paris.
You won't regret it
Champagne and show - 110 Euros - worth every cent, but book early. The
place is full of PPLs

Or.... drop off in Northern Paris (definitely NOT at Roissy or Le
Bourget !) and visit the Musee Aéronautique et Espace
(http://ns21156.ovh.net/~mae/)
More interesting than a bunch of East-European nude girls... but that's
only my suggestion !
;)

[Peter]

Post by VinMan
More interesting than a bunch of East-European nude girls... but that's
only my suggestion !

A bunch of East European (not Slovak though) nude girls is far more
interesting than a bunch of English nude girls, and that is an
objectively verifiable statement of fact!

[David Perry]

Whilst I would relish the challenge of proving you either wrong OR
right, I wonder whether this is really the stuff of rec.aviation.

But while we are here, HOW can you objectively verify that nude East
Euroland girls are more interesting than nude English ones? Surely what
one finds interesting is entirely SUBjective? Or perhaps you are simply
having a bash at the English in general?

David

Post by Peter

Post by VinMan
More interesting than a bunch of East-European nude girls... but that's
only my suggestion !

A bunch of East European (not Slovak though) nude girls is far more
interesting than a bunch of English nude girls, and that is an
objectively verifiable statement of fact!

[pietro]

Post by VinMan

Post by pietro
Drop off at LFPL or LFPN and visit the Crazy Horse in Paris.
You won't regret it
Champagne and show - 110 Euros - worth every cent, but book early. The
place is full of PPLs

Or.... drop off in Northern Paris (definitely NOT at Roissy or Le
Bourget !) and visit the Musee Aéronautique et Espace
(http://ns21156.ovh.net/~mae/)
More interesting than a bunch of East-European nude girls... but that's
only my suggestion !
;)

Hello VinMan,
here's a question for you.

Initiating at Dieppe how would you route to LFPL?

P.

[VinMan]

Post by pietro
Hello VinMan,
here's a question for you.
Initiating at Dieppe how would you route to LFPL?

LFPL to Dieppe : 87.5 NM and magnetic track 317°
In the real world you'll have to fly around Paris, and I've never done that.
Look for it on the Net, and I'll ask it on fr.rec.aviation. A guy will
have the answer, I'll keep you posted on the issue.

[pietro]

Post by VinMan

Post by pietro
Hello VinMan,
here's a question for you.
Initiating at Dieppe how would you route to LFPL?

LFPL to Dieppe : 87.5 NM and magnetic track 317°
In the real world you'll have to fly around Paris, and I've never done that.
Look for it on the Net, and I'll ask it on fr.rec.aviation. A guy will
have the answer, I'll keep you posted on the issue.

I tried it with PFMS, which is quite conservative. Using the restrictions:

Avoid Classes A & B and restricted areas

Stay above 1000 ft AGL

The answer was: Not able to establish a route.

Maybe to the south of Paris via Epernon and LFFQ. Then up to LFPL.?

P.

[VinMan]

Post by pietro
I tried it with PFMS, which is quite conservative.

A planning software ?

Post by pietro
Avoid Classes A & B and restricted areas

I don't think we have any B airspace in France. A, C, D, E and G only.

Post by pietro
Stay above 1000 ft AGL

Not always possible, unfortunately, due to airspace avoidance
constraints. When we flew (over water) along the Roma TMA, we weren't
allowed to go higher than 1500 feet....

[pietro]

Post by VinMan

Post by pietro
I tried it with PFMS, which is quite conservative.

A planning software ?

Post by pietro
Avoid Classes A & B and restricted areas

I don't think we have any B airspace in France. A, C, D, E and G only.

Post by pietro
Stay above 1000 ft AGL

Not always possible, unfortunately, due to airspace avoidance
constraints. When we flew (over water) along the Roma TMA, we weren't
allowed to go higher than 1500 feet....

PFMS is a GPS moving map software for Pocket Computers, PCs and Tablet
PDs - Here's the link:

<http://www.pocketfms.com/>

It's quite good for flight planning

P.

[VinMan]

Additional information, freshly translated from FRA :

French :
Donc de pontoise on passe bien entre les TMA de Creil et de Roissy...:
"Transit creil (attention alt si actif), et si actif transit publié sur
la VFR RP par le TGV (et plus l'autoroute) jusqu'à SE et Le Plessis"
Aprés le plessis :
"puis ensuite tu tournes au raz de la TMA"
"C'est pas évident évident dans le sens où la moindre erreur t'envoie
dans la TMA et avec CDG er ORY dans le coin...
Vaut mieux avoir un bon moving map ou un instructeur"

Mieux vaut se reporte à ça :
http://sia2.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/cgi-bin/siavpc2.storefront/45efb7340085ec702740d417a21c06d9/Product/View/4127
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

English :

* after Pontoise you fly between Creil and Roissy TMA (Terminal Area)
* Creil transit si published on the "VFR Region Parisienne" chart. It's
partly along the TGV (fast train) rails until Sierra Echo point
(probably South East point) and Le Plessis.
* then turn and stay outside the TMA
* Not an easy thing to do, remaining clear of Roissy or Orly TMA. Better
have a moving map GPS or an instructor.
* Here's the appropriate chart :
http://sia2.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/cgi-bin/siavpc2.storefront/45efb7340085ec702740d417a21c06d9/Product/View/4127

[VinMan]

Post by pietro
Initiating at Dieppe how would you route to LFPL?

Here's the reply I just had on fr.rec.aviation :

Dieppe -> Pontoise puis a partir de pontoise grosso-modo un cap 90 pour
rester dans le couloir de classe G a partit de la sortie de pontoise.
Attention zone de classe A à droite (Paris) et zone de Creil à gauche
(militaires), c'est vraiment un couloir. suivre ça en gros jusqu'au plessis.
le contournement de la classe A (Paris) oblige à suivre
après Le Plessis le QDM 149° mini de CLM (VOR de Coulommiers) jusqu'à
4,5 NM
au Nord du terrain de Meaux. Ensuite, on se reporte généralement verticale
Meaux pour ensuite prendre un cap voisin de 240° en évitant les plus
grosses
zones urbanisées et surtout Disneyland jusqu'à Ferrières (point d'entrée de
Lognes à 3,5 NM à l'Est).

Which, in Shakespeare's language would give :

* Fly Dieppe-Pontoise (LFPT)
* roughly heading 090° to remain in class G airspace when exiting
Pontoise area.
Mind the class A on your right (city of Paris) and Creil military
airspace on the left : it's a real corridor you have to follow until Le
Plessis airfield.
* After Le Plessis, avoiding Paris class A airspace forces you to fly
CLM's (VOR of Coulommiers) QDM 149° until 4,5 NM North of Meaux airfield.
* Then usual position report is overhead Meaux airfield
* roughly heading 240° avoiding the larger urban areas and Disneyland
until Ferrières, Lognes' entry point (3,5 to the East)

Never flew there myself, I just translated the reply I got.
Fly safe !

[Peter]

I hope this doesn't sound like a stupid answer but it's no use asking
in usenet how to plan a VFR route in some country.

One has to carry the charts anyway, so why not buy them. One can use
the 1:500k IGN charts (quite pretty and very clear but good only to
about 5000ft, which is very limiting for France where VFR flight can
be done freely up to FL105 and with reasonably easy clearance to FL195
or so) or the 1:1M official SIA charts.

It's indeed hard to plan VFR routes in France, due to the military
airspace, but most of that is at a low level and usually one can work
something out at 2000-3000ft. It can take an hour or two though...
especially with the SIA charts which have a separate booklet telling
you the vertical extents of the mil airspace.

However, there are easy routes in France which lie a bit higher up,
FL065+ is most cases, and I have described these at the end of here

http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/leax2/index.html

They are the easiest way to get around France; the caveat is that if
you end up at the destination at FL065, above a solid overcast, you
have a slight problem with making a "VFR" arrival :) So you need to be
clever with the weather - whereas a pilot flying *below* the clouds
can just scud run and remain VFR (and they get killed from time to
time by flying into hills in poor vis, etc).

The SIA charts can be bought from UK pilot shops, or (cheaper) from
SIA direct and then you get the mid-yearly update too. The general URL
is

http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/default_uk.htm

and if you click on (Online Shop) Charts, it's at the top of the list
at 29 Euros. Afterwards (a year later) they mail you an invite to
update and you go to Subscription Renewal...

[pietro]

Post by Peter
I hope this doesn't sound like a stupid answer but it's no use asking
in usenet how to plan a VFR route in some country.
One has to carry the charts anyway, so why not buy them. One can use
the 1:500k IGN charts (quite pretty and very clear but good only to
about 5000ft, which is very limiting for France where VFR flight can
be done freely up to FL105 and with reasonably easy clearance to FL195
or so) or the 1:1M official SIA charts.
It's indeed hard to plan VFR routes in France, due to the military
airspace, but most of that is at a low level and usually one can work
something out at 2000-3000ft. It can take an hour or two though...
especially with the SIA charts which have a separate booklet telling
you the vertical extents of the mil airspace.
However, there are easy routes in France which lie a bit higher up,
FL065+ is most cases, and I have described these at the end of here
http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/leax2/index.html
They are the easiest way to get around France; the caveat is that if
you end up at the destination at FL065, above a solid overcast, you
have a slight problem with making a "VFR" arrival :) So you need to be
clever with the weather - whereas a pilot flying *below* the clouds
can just scud run and remain VFR (and they get killed from time to
time by flying into hills in poor vis, etc).
The SIA charts can be bought from UK pilot shops, or (cheaper) from
SIA direct and then you get the mid-yearly update too. The general URL
is
http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/default_uk.htm
and if you click on (Online Shop) Charts, it's at the top of the list
at 29 Euros. Afterwards (a year later) they mail you an invite to
update and you go to Subscription Renewal...

Thanks for your input Peter. Getting around Paris isn't quite as easy as
one might think.
Actually I do about 60% of my hours in French airspace and I am a member
of a flying club in eastern France. The low level military corridors are
as you pointed out, quite numerous.
By the way, what would your choice of route be from Dieppe to Emerainville?

P.

[Peter]

Post by pietro
By the way, what would your choice of route be from Dieppe to Emerainville?

A quick look shows Paris to lie on the route :) I will get the SIA
charts out and will have a look tonight when I get home.

[Peter]

Post by pietro
By the way, what would your choice of route be from Dieppe to Emerainville?

Looking at the SIA chart:

Let me start at Lognes LFPL (which I think is what "Emerainville" is)
and go to Dieppe LFAB.

LFPL keep below the 1500ft Class A
VELER 1650ft AGL - FL045 (clears R53A)
LESDO now can climb to FL055
XORBI climb to FL065, AVOID THE PENLY ZIT!
LFAB

I have spent only half an hour on this, looking stuff up in the SIA
booklet, and if I was doing it I would check it twice, but that should
be more or less it.

There may be a SVFR route through the Class A, allowing e.g.

LFPL PGS MTD ABB LFAB

which is quite a bit shorter.

But this is a really short flight anyway.

[Peter]

Post by pietro
By the way, what would your choice of route be from Dieppe to Emerainville?

I also ran Jeppesen Flitemap on it, with its VFR route search. It came
up with this (among others)

LFPL
N48579E002516 N49014E002501 N49060E002470 N49073E002384
N49067E002160 N49002E002054 N48524E001599 N48572E001464
N49129E001384 N49245E001303 N49518E001068
LFAB

which is worse than my manually produced one, but one could fly loads
of routes like that, with a GPS that has been loaded up from the
flight planning program...

[pietro]

Post by Peter

Post by pietro
By the way, what would your choice of route be from Dieppe to Emerainville?

I also ran Jeppesen Flitemap on it, with its VFR route search. It came
up with this (among others)
LFPL
N48579E002516 N49014E002501 N49060E002470 N49073E002384
N49067E002160 N49002E002054 N48524E001599 N48572E001464
N49129E001384 N49245E001303 N49518E001068
LFAB
which is worse than my manually produced one, but one could fly loads
of routes like that, with a GPS that has been loaded up from the
flight planning program...

Thanks Peter.

As soon as I get FSX installed I'll put in both suggestions and give
them a dry run.

One of the many good things about PFMS is that you can hook it up to a
simulator and run through the route before you actually fly it. It's a
good way of checking your flight planning.

P.

[Peter]

Post by pietro
One of the many good things about PFMS is that you can hook it up to a
simulator and run through the route before you actually fly it. It's a
good way of checking your flight planning.

I would be careful with PocketFMS. It is a user maintained program and
I would not rely on any airspace depictions within it. Even IGN got
some airspace wrong on their 1:500k charts; Jeppesen for another bit
wrong (around Lyon) on their 1;500k charts, and only SIA 1:1M charts
were right.

Especially in France. I once busted a French TRA, back in the days
when they didn't show up reliably in the notam data. It took the DGAC
5-6 months to notify the CAA, requestion who the pilot was. This was
despite me receiving a radar service at the time, with a squawk they
gave me, and they even sent me a radar trace showing this. Nothing
happened in that case but clearly navigation in France needs to be
done right. This isn't the UK, where Class G is mostly everywhere and
most danger areas can be busted without major (or any, with some)
problems.

I will soon be chucking out my 2006 SIA charts so somebody can have
them free :) Of course they must not be used for real flight planning,
but they can be handy. Just email me the address.

Peter.
--
Return address is invalid to help stop junk mail.
E-mail replies to ***@peter2000AB.co.uk but remove the A and the B.
Please do NOT copy usenet posts to email - it is NOT necessary.

[Peter]

Post by David Perry
I'm thinking of doing the D2D this year. The theme my friend and I are
looking at is "follies", but I wonder if there's anything better or more
interesting around southern england that might make a more exciting D2D
trawl. Anyone got any ideas??
david

David - every so often you post messages on here with dates several
months back. It could be my ISP, or something happening on your PC.

[D]

Peter, thanks for that. Not sure why it should throw the wrong dates up at
my end though. I'll keep an eye on it in future...if I can remember!

david