F*cking hell!!

[Gus Cabre]

Mentioned in the Flyer e-group: skydiver nearly hits aircraft:
http://www.fugly.com/videos/6103/skydiver_almost_hits_an_airplane.html

Gus
Coltishall

[Peter]

Post by Gus Cabre
http://www.fugly.com/videos/6103/skydiver_almost_hits_an_airplane.html

I think para dropping coordinates with ATC - they drop from quite a
height and often from within what in the UK would be Class A. When
flying airways, or under a RIS, it's not unusual for me to get a
vector around the drop. But somebody who isn't in contact, and didn't
check notams...

[Ross Younger]

Post by Peter

Post by Gus Cabre
http://www.fugly.com/videos/6103/skydiver_almost_hits_an_airplane.html

Truly scary video. Somebody narrowly missed having a very bad day.

Post by Peter
I think para dropping coordinates with ATC - they drop from quite a
height and often from within what in the UK would be Class A.

They do. Unless otherwise advised droppers are supposed to squawk 0033C.
But, as you say, not everybody works under a RIS...


Ross

[karel]

Post by Peter

Post by Gus Cabre
http://www.fugly.com/videos/6103/skydiver_almost_hits_an_airplane.html

I think para dropping coordinates with ATC - they drop from quite a
height and often from within what in the UK would be Class A.

Confirmation: last summer I was at Cremona airfield LILR
and as chance would have it my lunch table neighbour
was the pilot of the local paradrop Pilatus Turbo Porter.
He told me the normal jump altitude was 14000',
and that from 10000' upwards he was in touch with Milano ATC.
I understood he was in class A airspace there too.

PS what is RIS?

PPSS both the Cremona aerodrome and its restaurant
are highly recommendable - though I was somewhat shocked
to see more than one pilot drinking wine and/or beer
with their lunch - and even some bitter with the espresso.
They did fly off quite happily afterwards, though...

KA

[Gus Cabre]

Post by karel
PS what is RIS?

Radar Information Service.

In the UK in uncontrolled airspace, we can obtain 3 types of service from a
nearby ATC:
FIS (Flight Information Service)
RIS (Radar Information Service)
RAS (Radar Advisory Service)

In summary:
A FIS is given to VFR traffic and is just that: information (frequencies,
weather ...).
A RIS is information only of traffic around you.
A RAS is for when you are in IMC and want ATC to give you vectors to avoid
traffic you can't see.

Have a look in
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_GAD_WEBSSL8.PDF#search=%22fis%20ris%20ras%22
for a more complete explanation.


Gus
Coltishall

[karel]

Post by Gus Cabre

Post by karel
PS what is RIS?

Radar Information Service.
In the UK in uncontrolled airspace, we can obtain 3 types of service from
FIS (Flight Information Service)
RIS (Radar Information Service)
RAS (Radar Advisory Service)

Thank you for this very detailed explanation, sir!
Do I understand all right these services
are normally provided by military controllers?
KA

[Ross Younger]

[FIS, RIS, RAS]
Do I understand all right these services
are normally provided by military controllers?

Almost any ATC will provide a FIS if you have "business" with them
or are in their vicinity. For example, whilst flying in to Bournemouth
recently, I called on the radio from about 15 miles away and the approach
controller gave me a FIS until he was ready to clear me into the control
zone. (He may also have been watching me on the radar, but didn't offer
a radar service.)

RIS and RAS are together known as the Lower Airspace Radar Service, which
is only provided by participating ATSUs, most of which are military.
("Lower", because it only serves pilots below FL100. Above that level
the Military Middle Airspace Radar Service provides cover over large
parts of the country.)


Ross

[Simon Hobson]

Post by Peter
I think para dropping coordinates with ATC - they drop from quite a
height and often from within what in the UK would be Class A. When
flying airways, or under a RIS, it's not unusual for me to get a
vector around the drop. But somebody who isn't in contact, and didn't
check notams...

Your posting is misleading. Yes, in some places they will be in
contraolled
airspace, but there's plenty of areas where this isn't the case.

Para dropping is by no means always notammed. It usually is for 'events',
but
for regular dropping it more than likely isn't - and I'm sure not all drop
zones
are marked on the charts.

So a lot of drops I'm sure will not be co-ordinated with ATC, and there is
no
requirement for a pilot to talk to anyone in uncontrolled airspace.

[[e-mail]]

Post by Gus Cabre
http://www.fugly.com/videos/6103/skydiver_almost_hits_an_airplane.html

It does happen, a skydiver chopped off a glider's wing a few years ago
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=173

[Stefan]

Post by ***@cam.ac.uk

Post by Gus Cabre
http://www.fugly.com/videos/6103/skydiver_almost_hits_an_airplane.html

It does happen, a skydiver chopped off a glider's wing a few years ago
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=173

The official report:
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_508152.pdf

[Mike Isaksen]

Gus, hope you don't mind that I cross posted this. The video is incredible
from the jumper perspective. I noticed the plane in the lower left of the
video frame,... and I remember the pilot mantra: if it aint movin in the
windshield, you will hit it.

Jumpers are the only real scary aviation experience I've had. Back in the
late 90's I was acting as safety pilot for a friend and we wanted to fly the
whole approach so we didn't get ATC involved. Well it was quite a surprise
to me when a half dozen chutes "appeared" about four miles ahead. We never
heard the jump plane's call on unicom! And we cleared the area promptly.

Since that event I've permanently changed some of my routine vfr xc habits:
1. I try to get flight following every time.
2. I don't directly overfly airports on xc.
3. I specifically look for and circle the para symbols enroute.

Post by Gus Cabre
http://www.fugly.com/videos/6103/skydiver_almost_hits_an_airplane.html

[Jay Beckman]

Post by Mike Isaksen
Gus, hope you don't mind that I cross posted this. The video is incredible
from the jumper perspective. I noticed the plane in the lower left of the
video frame,... and I remember the pilot mantra: if it aint movin in the
windshield, you will hit it.
Jumpers are the only real scary aviation experience I've had. Back in the
late 90's I was acting as safety pilot for a friend and we wanted to fly
the whole approach so we didn't get ATC involved. Well it was quite a
surprise to me when a half dozen chutes "appeared" about four miles ahead.
We never heard the jump plane's call on unicom! And we cleared the area
promptly.

FWIW,

There's a "little bit of skydiving" <gg> going on out in here in the desert
between Phoenix and Tucson but I don't think I've ever heard jump ops
talking on their airport's CTAF at the actual time of jumpers away. They're
either talking to Albuqurque Center or Tucson Approach.

Post by Mike Isaksen
1. I try to get flight following every time.

Ditto

Post by Mike Isaksen
2. I don't directly overfly airports on xc.

Ditto

Post by Mike Isaksen
3. I specifically look for and circle the para symbols enroute.

Double Ditto both enroute and during flight planning.

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[John Galban]

Post by Jay Beckman
There's a "little bit of skydiving" <gg> going on out in here in the desert
between Phoenix and Tucson but I don't think I've ever heard jump ops
talking on their airport's CTAF at the actual time of jumpers away. They're
either talking to Albuqurque Center or Tucson Approach.

Hey Jay,

If you're referring to Eloy, I'm in that area quite often and they
usually do both. They talk to ALB center on one radio and make
periodic anouncements on the CTAF 122.8. After a close call a decade
ago (when they first moved the dropzone from Coolidge to Eloy), I
always monitor the CTAF AND avoid overflying the airport. CTAF
announcement are usually 3 min. to drop, 1 min. to drop and jumpers
away.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Jay Beckman]

Post by John Galban

Post by Jay Beckman
There's a "little bit of skydiving" <gg> going on out in here in the desert
between Phoenix and Tucson but I don't think I've ever heard jump ops
talking on their airport's CTAF at the actual time of jumpers away.
They're
either talking to Albuqurque Center or Tucson Approach.

Hey Jay,
If you're referring to Eloy, I'm in that area quite often and they
usually do both. They talk to ALB center on one radio and make
periodic anouncements on the CTAF 122.8. After a close call a decade
ago (when they first moved the dropzone from Coolidge to Eloy), I
always monitor the CTAF AND avoid overflying the airport. CTAF
announcement are usually 3 min. to drop, 1 min. to drop and jumpers
away.
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

Hey! Hi John...

Yup, Eloy is the particular place I had in mind.

I may be guilty of over-avoidence but I will go out of my way to give E60 a
wide berth. If I'm headed to Tucson, I'll go straight south out of Stellar
over Phoenix Regional and then bend southeast for the really extended
straight in to 11L <gg> (I try to not go buzzing right through the practice
holds at TFD either.)

Usually I'm either already with ZAB or TUS Approach ... I'll make a mental
note to monitor 122.8 on Comm 2 after I get the ATIS at TUS next time I go
down that way.

So far, I've only seen jumpers under canopy once and it was on my first dual
XC as a student pilot ... a little un-nerving at first but it was a very
high overcast so they were easy to see and avoid.

Jay B

[w***@cox.net]

Post by Jay Beckman
Yup, Eloy is the particular place I had in mind.

Jay, I'll have to watch out for it.

I just got back from getting checked out to rent at Chandler--I think I
saw your name in the squawk books. Today was the first time I've gone
solo in 4 years (layoff, move, job search, retraining, etc.) Oh did
that feel good.

[Jay Beckman]

Post by w***@cox.net

Post by Jay Beckman
Yup, Eloy is the particular place I had in mind.

Jay, I'll have to watch out for it.
I just got back from getting checked out to rent at Chandler--I think I
saw your name in the squawk books. Today was the first time I've gone
solo in 4 years (layoff, move, job search, retraining, etc.) Oh did
that feel good.

Hi Web,

If you're renting from Tailwind then there is a good chance that my name
will show up in the books for:
- 5225A ("My Baby" Solo'd and passed checkride in her...)
- 53564
- 65453 (Not A Typo...Leaseback owner reg's two planes two years apart and
gets the same numbers but in a different order...kinda weird.)
- 0CL (never really liked 0CL ... HSI and very different xpnder...)
- 97V (Parked nearby but AFAIK no longer a part of Tailwind's fleet...)
- 21329 (Dunno what ever happend to this plane...they may still have it and
I've not noticed.)

Did you get to take a peek inside the G1000 SP??? I've been meaning to stop
by, say hello and check it out (but not get checked out..too much dinero
just to rent for fun...)

I've been on a bit of a layoff myself but I'll remedy that next
Tuesday...going flying with one of our club CFIs. Hard to believe I'm due
for my first BFR (Been a pilot for two whole years now...)

Glad you're airborne once again. We ought to go fly for breakfast
sometime...!

Jay B

[w***@cox.net]

Post by Jay Beckman
If you're renting from Tailwind then there is a good chance that my name
- 5225A ("My Baby" Solo'd and passed checkride in her...)
- 53564
- 65453 (Not A Typo...Leaseback owner reg's two planes two years apart and
gets the same numbers but in a different order...kinda weird.)
- 0CL (never really liked 0CL ... HSI and very different xpnder...)
- 97V (Parked nearby but AFAIK no longer a part of Tailwind's fleet...)
- 21329 (Dunno what ever happend to this plane...they may still have it and
I've not noticed.)

I've only rented 0CL and 390FA. FA is a 2-year old 172, very nice, and
nothing is falling off. 0CL is just fine for me, though it has a few
"comfort squawks" due to age. I hope by the end of the year to fly to
Dallas and back (yeah, "and back" would be just great, wouldn't it?)
ine either of the two aircraft. I'll have to decide if the $10/hour is
worth it, although the newer aircraft has an autopilot that might be
handy when flying long distances alone.

I usually fly on Tuesday eves. I was making position calls near the
practice area and heard a familiar voice on the radio ask if that was
me. Yep. My instructor identified himself, and I immediately started
worrying about my engine throttle getting yanked.

Post by Jay Beckman
Did you get to take a peek inside the G1000 SP??? I've been meaning to stop
by, say hello and check it out (but not get checked out..too much dinero
just to rent for fun...)
I've been on a bit of a layoff myself but I'll remedy that next
Tuesday...going flying with one of our club CFIs. Hard to believe I'm due
for my first BFR (Been a pilot for two whole years now...)

Hm. What club? I might need one.

Post by Jay Beckman
Glad you're airborne once again. We ought to go fly for breakfast
sometime...!

Payson, Sedona, San Jose???

Post by Jay Beckman
Jay B

[Alan Gerber]

Post by Mike Isaksen
1. I try to get flight following every time.

And if you don't/can't get flight following, monitor the appropriate
frequency anyway. They often announce jumpers on the local Approach
frequency here.

Post by Mike Isaksen
3. I specifically look for and circle the para symbols enroute.

And get a life briefing from FSS. They often tell me about scheduled jump
activity.

... Alan

[Peter]

Post by Mike Isaksen
1. I try to get flight following every time.

So easy to tell which poster is in America :)

A service from air traffic every time???? How is that done? :)

[Jay Beckman]

Post by Peter

Post by Mike Isaksen
1. I try to get flight following every time.

So easy to tell which poster is in America :)
A service from air traffic every time???? How is that done? :)

Simply by keying the mic and requesting it.
Of course, there's no guarentee that the controller will be able to
accomodate you, but most times they will (at least here in Arizona.)

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ USA

[Mike Isaksen]

Post by Peter

Post by Mike Isaksen
1. I try to get flight following every time.

So easy to tell which poster is in America :)
A service from air traffic every time???? How is that done? :)

My experience, confirmed by several pre 9/11 ATC open houses (op
rainchecks), is that ATC wants you to call in for vfr services IF you are
either enroute or operating where you could be a conflict for their ifr ops.
The enroute callup is very low workload for them, and if your callup request
is succinct with a landing ID & only a few intersections they will usually
type up a quick strip for you. To make this process even easier I still use
the victor airway system for my vfr enroute, even if it takes me a few miles
out of the way.
The second reason (potential ifr conflict) is where they benefit greatly by
your callup. Since you will be there anyway as an unverified target, you are
the "great unknown to a control freak", and his workload just went up. Once
you callup, you verify your altitude transponder reading and your intension
not to play tag with his ifr traffic, his workload goes down. I can't
remember the exact details now but I recall the seperation requirements also
drop when both targets are verified and either one sees the other. Once
again workload goes down; they like that, and so do I.

On your other point, there is the danger that we (US) are slowly moving in
the direction of the Euro Control model, and that would change GA in America
greatly. Besides the concept of ATC user fees, I can envision in the long
term the lowering of the Class A floor to 8000 ft and other draconian
changes. The only long term solution is getting the active Private Pilot
body count moving in the upward direction. The latest AOPA focus on this is
long overdue. They need to set a quantified goal of 100000 new members in
five years. How we get there is by each of us bringing one new person into
the rank of pilot, and by offering some right seat time to those oldtimers
who may be working on their medicals. Think about it.

OK,... I yield the soapbox.

[mike regish]

We had a jumper hit a plane about 10 years ago, I think. Jumper broke his
ankle. All 4 in the plane died. He hit the rudder and jammed it. I think the
jumper sued the pilot's family.

Whenever we have a safety seminar and the subject of overflying the airport
to check the windsock comes up, I in variably have to pipe in with "unless
you see a little parachute next to the airport." If you can confirm that
there's no jumpa ctivity at the time, go ahead and overfly. If you can't,
stay outside the cone surrounding the landing pattern. This is where the
jumpers will be and that cone varies with wind direction.

I guess this guy actually didn't see the plane. For a second, I thought he
was aiming at it.

mike

Post by Mike Isaksen
Gus, hope you don't mind that I cross posted this. The video is incredible
from the jumper perspective. I noticed the plane in the lower left of the
video frame,... and I remember the pilot mantra: if it aint movin in the
windshield, you will hit it.
Jumpers are the only real scary aviation experience I've had. Back in the
late 90's I was acting as safety pilot for a friend and we wanted to fly
the whole approach so we didn't get ATC involved. Well it was quite a
surprise to me when a half dozen chutes "appeared" about four miles ahead.
We never heard the jump plane's call on unicom! And we cleared the area
promptly.
1. I try to get flight following every time.
2. I don't directly overfly airports on xc.
3. I specifically look for and circle the para symbols enroute.

Post by Gus Cabre
http://www.fugly.com/videos/6103/skydiver_almost_hits_an_airplane.html

[m***@worldnet.att.net]

Post by Gus Cabre
http://www.fugly.com/videos/6103/skydiver_almost_hits_an_airplane.html

Original version in better resolution here:
http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=2836

Discussion, started by the guy who shot the video, here:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1183486

Note that both of these sites require registration. The guys that run
SkydivingMovies have said that this is a deliberate filter to keep their
bandwidth bill reasonable; I've been registered there for about a year
and a half and haven't gotten any spam from them. Most of Dropzone.com
does not require registration, but the above post is in the Incidents
forum, which does.

Another site, by one of those strange people that wants to stay in the
airplane all the time, is http://www.diverdriver.com/ . It mostly
focuses on piloting jump planes but it might be another place to
discuss procedures for flying near dropzones in general.

Disclaimer: I have less than 50 jumps at this point and I don't know
everything. But at the DZ I've jumped at where I can actually see
what the pilot's doing (Cessna 182), I've seen him switch over from
the ATC frequency to the local CTAF to make an announcement when we're
about to jump. At some other DZs, when I've been on the ground I've
listened to the CTAF on a scanner and I usually hear an announcement
from the jump plane.

I've got a couple of VFR sectional charts that have the parachute symbol
next to some of the airports. These tend to err on the side of caution;
I haven't seen any airports where jumping was going on that _didn't_
have the symbol, but I know of a couple of dropzones that have closed
down (in one case, a few years ago) whose airports still have the
parachute symbol. An alternate way (not valid for navigation, advisory
only, your mileage may vary, etc) to find active DZs might be the
database at http://www.dropzone.com/dropzone/ (no registration needed).
It has a map-based lookup for the US and the UK and a list for
everywhere else.

Matt Roberds

[Richard]

Post by Mike Isaksen
Gus, hope you don't mind that I cross posted this. The video is incredible
from the jumper perspective. I noticed the plane in the lower left of the
video frame,... and I remember the pilot mantra: if it aint movin in the
windshield, you will hit it.
Jumpers are the only real scary aviation experience I've had. Back in the
late 90's I was acting as safety pilot for a friend and we wanted to fly the
whole approach so we didn't get ATC involved. Well it was quite a surprise
to me when a half dozen chutes "appeared" about four miles ahead. We never
heard the jump plane's call on unicom! And we cleared the area promptly.
1. I try to get flight following every time.
2. I don't directly overfly airports on xc.
3. I specifically look for and circle the para symbols enroute.

Post by Gus Cabre
http://www.fugly.com/videos/6103/skydiver_almost_hits_an_airplane.html

Hi

As a skydiver and former pilot wannabe, who, after discovering
keratoconus in both eyes does neither now I must comment on this from a
skydiver's perspective. Also understand that with over 11 years jumping
I've known a great many pilots.

Check your NOTAMs.

Check them again.

I've only experienced one close encounter of the "plane" kind under
canopy and that was on a cross country canopy glide. But he was close
enough (c-1??) to wave at. This over Waller County Texas (I hate IAH
and all the rest of that- post the name or don't post).

This video shows to me, as a skydiver and as a former freefall
videographer, surprise. "Oh Shit!" is not the exclamation of someone,
who, from other posts in this thread seems to think, was "aiming" for
the plane. And which makes me wonder...if you step off a curb into
traffic do you (moron) aim for a car? I doubt it.

'Nother point. Traffic under power is "burdened". 'nuff said?

Regards,
Richard
USAP D-11950

[mike regish]

"Richard" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@giganews.com...
"Oh Shit!" is not the exclamation of someone,

who, from other posts in this thread seems to think, was "aiming" for the
plane. And which makes me wonder...if you step off a curb into traffic do
you (moron) aim for a car? I doubt it.
'Nother point. Traffic under power is "burdened". 'nuff said?

Post by mike regish
I guess this guy actually didn't see the plane. For a second, I thought he

was aiming at it.<<

Is that the statement you were referring to?

Actually, it was ONE post-not posts. And "For a second" means just that. For
a second. Like when the plane was plainly (NPI) in sight, started to track
away and then went steady again.

Might want to quit wearing the thongs so tight.

mike