Starting out towards a (N)PPL

[o***@hotmail.com]

Hi all, this is my first post here, so apologies in advance if I end up
asking stupid, newbie questions.

After flying MS Flight Simulator for several years and following a
recent pleasure flight in a light aircraft and taking my first
commercial flight on a BA 737 last month, I have caught the flying bug
badly and have decided I would like to try my hand at learning to fly.

I've been looking into taking a trial flying lesson as a first step,
and have a couple of questions I hope someone wouldn't mind answering.

I believe that the trial lesson can be counted towards the 'hours'
needed for the licence? I have been looking at flights from local
airfields (Goodwood and Shoreham) and some schools offer a choice of
either a Piper PA28 or a Cessna 152 - I have been wondering, can you
still count the trial lesson if it was in a different aircraft to the
one you end up training on? I can't work out if the PPL is limited to
the specific type of aircraft you train on, or whether it qualifies you
to fly any Single Engine Piston aeroplane.

Assuming I enjoy the trial lesson and my enthusiasm continues (which I
am confident it will) I will have one problem with going on to 'real'
training - finance. I was really wondering if anyone could offer some
views on the sort of minimum amount of flying (and, therefore,
expenditure) one could maintain and still stand some chance of
eventually getting the licence. Unfortunately, I am a recent graduate
in a basically part-time and not-particularly highly paid job so the
amount of cash I could dedicate to the cause of learning to fly would
be limited - probably around the cost of one lesson a month. Is this
likely to be a viable proposition? I realise it will take much longer
this way (I studied education, so I appreciate the need for regular
consolidation in learning), but is the general view that it is possible
or not?

I had and quickly dismissed the dream of becoming an airline pilot (I
have no way of getting hold of the £60k for training!), but have toyed
with the idea of trying to make it as far as being an instructor at
some time in the future. Sadly, I just have no way of raising £7 or 8k
for a full PPL course as a starting point! Of course, any innovative
ideas for cost saving on learning to fly would be of interest too!

Thanks in advance of your help,

Chris.

[Surfer!]

In message <***@q40g2000cwq.googlegroups.com>,
***@hotmail.com writes
<snip>

Post by o***@hotmail.com
Of course, any innovative
ideas for cost saving on learning to fly would be of interest too!

Join the RAF? :)

[o***@hotmail.com]

Post by Surfer!
<snip>

Post by o***@hotmail.com
Of course, any innovative
ideas for cost saving on learning to fly would be of interest too!

Join the RAF? :)

OK, better re-phrase the question! ;-)

Any innovative ideas for cost saving on learning to fly, without
risking being blown to bits, would be of interest too!

[Surfer!]

Post by o***@hotmail.com

Post by Surfer!
<snip>

Post by o***@hotmail.com
Of course, any innovative
ideas for cost saving on learning to fly would be of interest too!

Join the RAF? :)

OK, better re-phrase the question! ;-)
Any innovative ideas for cost saving on learning to fly, without
risking being blown to bits, would be of interest too!

Not everyone in the RAF gets shot at - but maybe (depending on your
degree) you could find a job where flying was cheaper than usual? Some
employers have flying clubs. You could also look for where in the
country (if anywhere) it's best value for flying. Cheapest might imply
mingy planes that have seen much better days - though I'm sure you can
pay through the nose for that kind of experience.

You could also consider a different kind of flying - gliding. And if
you go on to a PPL it will stand you in good stead. I've heard that a
lot of people get a PPL and then don't really continue flying because of
the cost. An hour in a glider at my club is just under £30 including a
winch launch - more off aerotow. Of course gliders need the right
weather and so on, and landing is a one-shot game, but Bronze + XC
endorsement (nearest to a PPL) will cost an awful lot less than £7k.

Maybe you should try gliding your simulator? Mind you, I can't fly a
flight simulator for toffee (have crashed my PC all over the world)
despite being solo in real gliders, and I'm sure I'd find the same about
a sailing simulator despite being accomplished in that sphere.
Certainly there's no way you can learn to keep lookout for any kind of
plane (unless your room is lined with screens!) nor can you learn the
feelings of lift & sink, nor can you get the thrill of finding
(blundering into) blue wave and watching the white mountains shrink
before your eyes.... :).

[NOSPAM]

Post by o***@hotmail.com
Hi all, this is my first post here, so apologies in advance if I end up
asking stupid, newbie questions.
After flying MS Flight Simulator for several years and following a
recent pleasure flight in a light aircraft and taking my first
commercial flight on a BA 737 last month, I have caught the flying bug
badly and have decided I would like to try my hand at learning to fly.
I've been looking into taking a trial flying lesson as a first step,
and have a couple of questions I hope someone wouldn't mind answering.

Ah, everything you need or want to know about getting a PPL, or should I
say Nppl?

The best thing to do is to book a trial flight first and spend between
30 to 60 minutes in the air. The longer the better. Why not even try
both flying schools for a trial flight. That way if you decide to go
ahead you may have a better feel for the type of aircraft you may train
on and whether you and your future instructors actually get on. Beleive
me when you are coughing up a few thousand pounds you want to know you
are getting value for money. In addition, who has the better fleet to
train on. My first ever trial flight ended with 3 fire trucks on the
runway after the engine cowling came off immediately after climbing
through 300feet after take off. Not funny, but not scared either.
Perhaps thats why I like flying so much?

Post by o***@hotmail.com
I believe that the trial lesson can be counted towards the 'hours'
needed for the licence? I have been looking at flights from local
airfields (Goodwood and Shoreham) and some schools offer a choice of
either a Piper PA28 or a Cessna 152 - I have been wondering, can you
still count the trial lesson if it was in a different aircraft to the
one you end up training on? I can't work out if the PPL is limited to
the specific type of aircraft you train on, or whether it qualifies you
to fly any Single Engine Piston aeroplane.

The trial lesson does count but you may be in control of the aircraft
for 15 - 30 minutes? Not really worth counting as you may need more than
the 45 hours minimum for a PPL anyway. The NPPL is less, but not much.

You can fly any Single Engine Piston aircraft, but you may need
differences training depending on how different an aircraft is to the
one you usually fly. ie. retractable undercarriage, tailwheel. etc.

Post by o***@hotmail.com
Assuming I enjoy the trial lesson and my enthusiasm continues (which I
am confident it will) I will have one problem with going on to 'real'
training - finance. I was really wondering if anyone could offer some
views on the sort of minimum amount of flying (and, therefore,
expenditure) one could maintain and still stand some chance of
eventually getting the licence. Unfortunately, I am a recent graduate
in a basically part-time and not-particularly highly paid job so the
amount of cash I could dedicate to the cause of learning to fly would
be limited - probably around the cost of one lesson a month. Is this
likely to be a viable proposition? I realise it will take much longer
this way (I studied education, so I appreciate the need for regular
consolidation in learning), but is the general view that it is possible
or not?

Not to be sarcastic, but we would all love to fly for free, or at least
cheaper. Forget an hour a month you will forget more in that month than
you will ever learn in one hour and I am sure it will take you years to
get your NPPL and always be playing catch up with each lesson. If you
can, try a lesson a week at least. Some weeks you will need 2 - 3 hours
each lesson, ie first solo, cross country and so on.

Post by o***@hotmail.com
I had and quickly dismissed the dream of becoming an airline pilot (I
have no way of getting hold of the £60k for training!), but have toyed
with the idea of trying to make it as far as being an instructor at
some time in the future. Sadly, I just have no way of raising £7 or 8k
for a full PPL course as a starting point! Of course, any innovative
ideas for cost saving on learning to fly would be of interest too!
Thanks in advance of your help,
Chris.

Buy Flyers Learn to Fly guide and have a look at whats involoved then
get your credit card out. Dont want to scare you, but you will never
forget the first flight and will hopefully not be able to wait for the
next one. But, be realistic about what you can do.

Jase

[Andy R]

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@q40g2000cwq.googlegroups.com...
I believe that the trial lesson can be counted towards the 'hours'
needed for the licence? I have been looking at flights from local
airfields (Goodwood and Shoreham) and some schools offer a choice of
either a Piper PA28 or a Cessna 152 - I have been wondering, can you
still count the trial lesson if it was in a different aircraft to the
one you end up training on? I can't work out if the PPL is limited to
the specific type of aircraft you train on, or whether it qualifies you
to fly any Single Engine Piston aeroplane.

The licence will be for SEP but you'll need differences training for
non-fixed prop, retractable gear and pressurised a/c if you go that far.


Assuming I enjoy the trial lesson and my enthusiasm continues (which I
am confident it will) I will have one problem with going on to 'real'
training - finance.

IMHO the best way to reduce the costs is to buy a share in an a/c which you
can train in. ie I own 1/6th of a C172 which costs £40 per month plus £50
per tacho hour wet to fly (this would equate to about £40 p/h block time).
Over 50 block hours, compared to a club, the saving would be around £3500,
half the cost of the share in the first place and you could still sell the
share when you've finished. If you simply cannot raise this sort of capital
even by way of a loan I wonder if it's worth doing the (N)PPL because once
you've got the licence you still need to fly at least a couple of dozen
hours per year just to remember how it all works and the savings on flying a
group a/c will more than cover the loan repayments.

Rgds

Andy R

[Greg]

***@hotmail.com wrote:

A few thoughts, if you're thinking the NPPL is going to be a cheaper
route than a PPL think again, yes the minimum number of hours is
slightly less but most people take more than the minimum so this makes
no difference, most agree the only reason to go for a NPPL is if you
have a medical problem that prevents you going the PPL route.

Post by o***@hotmail.com
some time in the future. Sadly, I just have no way of raising £7 or 8k
for a full PPL course as a starting point! Of course, any innovative
ideas for cost saving on learning to fly would be of interest too!

Buy Pilot magazine and have a look in the ads in the back, training in
the US is a lot cheaper than over here.

A colleague is about half way through a PPL in the UK but because he
only takes lessons very infrequently (due to time constraints but it's
the same result as a financial constraint) he admits to making very
little progress. Each lesson is spent remembering what he's forgotton
and while he enjoys it he's not actually getting anywhere.
Greg

[Stephen]

.....I have caught the flying bug
badly and have decided I would like to try my hand at learning to fly.
Unfortunately, I am a recent graduate
in a basically part-time and not-particularly highly paid job

If you're time rich and cash poor then gliding may suit you.

Clubs in your area to look at include Lasham (http://www.lasham.org.uk) and
Southdown (www.sgc1.org).

Stephen

[Rob White]

see the post and replies from 09/11/06 headed "overall cost" - lots of
useful discussion.

rob

<***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@q40g2000cwq.googlegroups.com...
Hi all, this is my first post here, so apologies in advance if I end up
asking stupid, newbie questions.

After flying MS Flight Simulator for several years and following a
recent pleasure flight in a light aircraft and taking my first
commercial flight on a BA 737 last month, I have caught the flying bug
badly and have decided I would like to try my hand at learning to fly.

I've been looking into taking a trial flying lesson as a first step,
and have a couple of questions I hope someone wouldn't mind answering.

I believe that the trial lesson can be counted towards the 'hours'
needed for the licence? I have been looking at flights from local
airfields (Goodwood and Shoreham) and some schools offer a choice of
either a Piper PA28 or a Cessna 152 - I have been wondering, can you
still count the trial lesson if it was in a different aircraft to the
one you end up training on? I can't work out if the PPL is limited to
the specific type of aircraft you train on, or whether it qualifies you
to fly any Single Engine Piston aeroplane.

Assuming I enjoy the trial lesson and my enthusiasm continues (which I
am confident it will) I will have one problem with going on to 'real'
training - finance. I was really wondering if anyone could offer some
views on the sort of minimum amount of flying (and, therefore,
expenditure) one could maintain and still stand some chance of
eventually getting the licence. Unfortunately, I am a recent graduate
in a basically part-time and not-particularly highly paid job so the
amount of cash I could dedicate to the cause of learning to fly would
be limited - probably around the cost of one lesson a month. Is this
likely to be a viable proposition? I realise it will take much longer
this way (I studied education, so I appreciate the need for regular
consolidation in learning), but is the general view that it is possible
or not?

I had and quickly dismissed the dream of becoming an airline pilot (I
have no way of getting hold of the £60k for training!), but have toyed
with the idea of trying to make it as far as being an instructor at
some time in the future. Sadly, I just have no way of raising £7 or 8k
for a full PPL course as a starting point! Of course, any innovative
ideas for cost saving on learning to fly would be of interest too!

Thanks in advance of your help,

Chris.


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[Peter]

Post by o***@hotmail.com
Hi all, this is my first post here, so apologies in advance if I end up
asking stupid, newbie questions.

The only stupid question is the one not asked :)

Post by o***@hotmail.com
After flying MS Flight Simulator for several years and following a
recent pleasure flight in a light aircraft and taking my first
commercial flight on a BA 737 last month, I have caught the flying bug
badly and have decided I would like to try my hand at learning to fly.
I've been looking into taking a trial flying lesson as a first step,
and have a couple of questions I hope someone wouldn't mind answering.
I believe that the trial lesson can be counted towards the 'hours'
needed for the licence?

Yes.

But only if you bought a logbook and wrote it up in there. The school
you did a trial lesson with is unlikely to keep a record of it; they
do these flights all day long and most of the people are never seen
again.

Post by o***@hotmail.com
I have been looking at flights from local
airfields (Goodwood and Shoreham) and some schools offer a choice of
either a Piper PA28 or a Cessna 152 - I have been wondering, can you
still count the trial lesson if it was in a different aircraft to the
one you end up training on?

Yes.

Post by o***@hotmail.com
I can't work out if the PPL is limited to
the specific type of aircraft you train on, or whether it qualifies you
to fly any Single Engine Piston aeroplane.

The PPL, when you get it, will be limited to a SEP, flown VFR daytime.
You can do multi engine and night add-ons, and other stuff like
tail-draggers, separately.

Post by o***@hotmail.com
Assuming I enjoy the trial lesson and my enthusiasm continues (which I
am confident it will) I will have one problem with going on to 'real'
training - finance. I was really wondering if anyone could offer some
views on the sort of minimum amount of flying (and, therefore,
expenditure) one could maintain and still stand some chance of
eventually getting the licence. Unfortunately, I am a recent graduate
in a basically part-time and not-particularly highly paid job so the
amount of cash I could dedicate to the cause of learning to fly would
be limited - probably around the cost of one lesson a month. Is this
likely to be a viable proposition? I realise it will take much longer
this way (I studied education, so I appreciate the need for regular
consolidation in learning), but is the general view that it is possible
or not?

There is no really cheap way to do this. This isn't like keeping a £1M
yacht, but it isn't a dirt cheap hobby either. The costs depend
(excuse the fancy phrase) on the desired mission capability.

If you are happy to fly around locally on nice days, you can get into
flying at the microlight level and that is about as cheap as it will
ever get. You can go abroad but frankly would you want to fly
something relatively flimsy over so much water?

If you want to go further then it gets more expensive.

The legal minimum is 12 hours every 2 years but that is IMHO too
little for safe currency.

Post by o***@hotmail.com
I had and quickly dismissed the dream of becoming an airline pilot (I
have no way of getting hold of the £60k for training!), but have toyed
with the idea of trying to make it as far as being an instructor at
some time in the future. Sadly, I just have no way of raising £7 or 8k
for a full PPL course as a starting point! Of course, any innovative
ideas for cost saving on learning to fly would be of interest too!

The sad truth is that if you can't afford an 8k PPL then you have two
problems:

The PPL will take you a very long time to do because too much time
between lessons is a very inefficient way of learning.

You won't be doing much flying post-PPL - except at a very minimal
level.

You could go to the USA for a few weeks and do a PPL there; it's about
2/3 of the UK cost by the time you allow for living etc.

I would also not bother with an NPPL, unless you have to do one
because you fail the CAA Class 2 medical.

[Gail]

NPPL costs around £50 per hour, plus any training or ground school costs.
Gliding clubs very often can offer NPPL courses at just the cost of the
hire!

NPPL will allow you to fly a motor glider or a single engined propellor
driven a/c according to what types you are rated for - in the UK only.

PPL costs around £120 per hour plus any training and ground school. it is
possible to get this cheaper so shop around. PPL will allow you to fly
abroad where an NPPL won't, and both will only allow you to fly in VFR
conditions. That means nice blue skies with not much cloud and little wind.

Learning to fly varys according to your skill level. I believe the minimum
requirement is 45 hours. I believe most people solo at around 60 hours. You
can however save some money/hours if you have hours spent on another type,
gliders for example (up to a maximum of 10 hours) and bare in mind, you'll
be already able to fly straight and level... and do a dead-stick (no engine)
landing!

Additional aircraft types and ratings can be added to your licence once you
have it. For example, instrument ratings that will let you fly on days when
the visability is a bit poor.

If you decide to do a PPL consider going to the State's or Spain. You can do
a UK JAA PPL abroad and save a lot of money - even with the accomodation and
travel costs!
(There's a local flying school (near me), that trains pilots for airlines.
They ship their students out to california because it's cheaper than
teaching them here!)

Also, do some research in to exactly what you're paying for, i.e some
schools charge a Hobbs Metre hour, (engine time), Some schools charge
breaks-off to breaks-on. If you're paying for hobbs time don't fly first
thing in the morning as you could be paying to warm up a cold engine.

Now for the disclaimer: I'm a glider pilot and the above opinion is based on
observations that I have made regarding flying stuff with engines.

check out the following web site (if you haven't already)
http://www.loop.aero/learn_to_fly. They have some good info on learning to
fly ...and you can get a freeby monthly paper!

good luck

Gail

[o***@hotmail.com]

Thanks to all for your helpful insights, comments and advice.

It seems as though I need to go back to the drawing board about the
idea - maybe wait until later on when I have progressed sufficiently in
my career to be able to invest more cash!

It's nice to come to a group and get helpful answers to basic questions
without getting flamed to bits for asking! Thanks again.

Chris.

[Surfer!]

In message <enlrlh$5gc$***@frank-exchange-of-views.oucs.ox.ac.uk>, Gail
<***@thismail.com> writes
<snip>

Post by Gail
. You
can however save some money/hours if you have hours spent on another type,
gliders for example (up to a maximum of 10 hours) and bare in mind, you'll
be already able to fly straight and level... and do a dead-stick (no engine)
landing!

<Snip>

Would have thought the glide angle for a dead-stick plane is rather
worse than for a glider, even with full air brakes. That could be a tad
worrying as the field steadily rises up the canopy...

[Peter]

Post by Surfer!
Would have thought the glide angle for a dead-stick plane is rather
worse than for a glider, even with full air brakes. That could be a tad
worrying as the field steadily rises up the canopy...

Yes, the average 4-seat IFR tourer will glide like a brick, but given
that the "right field" is statistically just as likely to be close as
far, and given that the close one can be more easily visually checked,
I don't think this should be a major problem. I'd say the biggest
factor in whether you bend something is how slowly you come in, and
gliders not only can fly very slowly but are also much lighter, so
there is far less energy to get rid of.

[Surfer!]

Post by Peter

Post by Surfer!
Would have thought the glide angle for a dead-stick plane is rather
worse than for a glider, even with full air brakes. That could be a tad
worrying as the field steadily rises up the canopy...

Yes, the average 4-seat IFR tourer will glide like a brick, but given
that the "right field" is statistically just as likely to be close as
far, and given that the close one can be more easily visually checked,
I don't think this should be a major problem. I'd say the biggest
factor in whether you bend something is how slowly you come in, and
gliders not only can fly very slowly but are also much lighter, so
there is far less energy to get rid of.

We can fly slowly (how slowly depends on the type but about 40 knots in
the single-seaters I fly) but we always speed up to land - typically
55-60 knots - to give enough control and energy in hand to avoid bending
things. If the approach is too slow then all manner of nasty things can
happen, from spinning in the final turn to suddenly dropping a distance
if one flies through an abrupt wind gradient.

A quick Google suggested the approach speed for a Cessna Hawk XP is
60-65mph - almost identical. The Cessna is about twice as heavy though,
1550 lbs against 800lbs empty weight. It can carry a lot more 'cargo'
as well - max for the ASK21 is two people each of 242lbs with their
parachute.

[Phil Collin]

Post by Surfer!

Post by Peter

Post by Surfer!
Would have thought the glide angle for a dead-stick plane is rather
worse than for a glider, even with full air brakes. That could be a tad
worrying as the field steadily rises up the canopy...

Yes, the average 4-seat IFR tourer will glide like a brick, but given
that the "right field" is statistically just as likely to be close as
far, and given that the close one can be more easily visually checked,
I don't think this should be a major problem. I'd say the biggest
factor in whether you bend something is how slowly you come in, and
gliders not only can fly very slowly but are also much lighter, so
there is far less energy to get rid of.

We can fly slowly (how slowly depends on the type but about 40 knots in
the single-seaters I fly) but we always speed up to land - typically
55-60 knots - to give enough control and energy in hand to avoid bending
things. If the approach is too slow then all manner of nasty things can
happen, from spinning in the final turn to suddenly dropping a distance
if one flies through an abrupt wind gradient.
A quick Google suggested the approach speed for a Cessna Hawk XP is
60-65mph - almost identical. The Cessna is about twice as heavy though,
1550 lbs against 800lbs empty weight. It can carry a lot more 'cargo'
as well - max for the ASK21 is two people each of 242lbs with their
parachute.

Interesting piece of useless or useful info [you decide] All European
built two seat and single seat gliders have a max seat load of 242
pounds. Reason is that harnesses are tested to 15G loading and 242
pounds is the maximum weight for the first point of harness failure and
NOT the max weight the glider can support..

[Stefan]

Post by Phil Collin
Interesting piece of useless or useful info [you decide] All European
built two seat and single seat gliders have a max seat load of 242
pounds. Reason is that harnesses are tested to 15G loading and 242
pounds is the maximum weight for the first point of harness failure and
NOT the max weight the glider can support..

No, this is not the reason. The reason is that JAR-22 requires an
allowed pilot weight of at least 110kg. (JAR 22.25, 22.785 and maybe
others.)

Stefan

[Phil Collin]

Post by Stefan

Post by Phil Collin
Interesting piece of useless or useful info [you decide] All European
built two seat and single seat gliders have a max seat load of 242
pounds. Reason is that harnesses are tested to 15G loading and 242
pounds is the maximum weight for the first point of harness failure
and NOT the max weight the glider can support..

No, this is not the reason. The reason is that JAR-22 requires an
allowed pilot weight of at least 110kg. (JAR 22.25, 22.785 and maybe
others.)
Stefan

Stefan, with all due respect, JAR 22 .25 stipulates what the max should
be, it doesn't tell you why. For the why part I refer you to my original
posting. 22.561 e references 15g, albeit for a powered sailplane, never
the less there is communication between those people that make the kit
and those people that write the rules and regs. Harnesses must and will
support 15g loading up to and including 242 lbs.

Regards,

Phil.

[Stefan]

Post by Phil Collin
Stefan, with all due respect, JAR 22 .25 stipulates what the max should
be, it doesn't tell you why. For the why part I refer you to my original
posting. 22.561 e references 15g, albeit for a powered sailplane, never
the less there is communication between those people that make the kit
and those people that write the rules and regs. Harnesses must and will
support 15g loading up to and including 242 lbs.

Hmm. Then why is the required minimal maximal pilot weight (tm) for a
two seater 180kg and not 220?

[Phil Collin]

Post by Stefan

Post by Phil Collin
Stefan, with all due respect, JAR 22 .25 stipulates what the max
should be, it doesn't tell you why. For the why part I refer you to
my original
posting. 22.561 e references 15g, albeit for a powered sailplane,
never the less there is communication between those people that make
the kit and those people that write the rules and regs. Harnesses must
and will support 15g loading up to and including 242 lbs.

Hmm. Then why is the required minimal maximal pilot weight (tm) for a
two seater 180kg and not 220?

According to the technical sheets on the BGA's web site ALL the two
seater's listed have a 242 Lbs limit. European tech sheets may "differ"
slightly hence your question I guess.

[Stefan]

Post by Phil Collin

Post by Stefan
Hmm. Then why is the required minimal maximal pilot weight (tm) for a
two seater 180kg and not 220?

According to the technical sheets on the BGA's web site ALL the two
seater's listed have a 242 Lbs limit. European tech sheets may "differ"
slightly hence your question I guess.

All two seaters I know have 110kg limit for each seat, which is the
same. But that was not the question. The question was why.

You stated that all European built two seat and single seat gliders have
a max seat load of 242 pounds because harnesses are tested to 15G
loading and 242 pounds is the maximum weight for the first point of
harness failure.

Then I stated that it was rather because JAR-22 pretty much arbtitrarily
asks for 110kg pilot weight. (And the harnesses then just are
constructed accordingly to withstand 15g.)

Then you stated that the harness thing was first and this JAR regulation
was because of the harness thing.

And then I stated that this can't be so, because if it would, two
seaters were required to be tested for 220kg pilot weight, but JAR only
asks for 180kg. So your reasoning lacks consistence.

Personally, after contemplating a bit, I assume that the 110kg limit for
single seaters was first, then harnesses were constructed accordingly to
withstand 15g, and then, because it wasn't really a structural limit for
the gliders and because those harnesses would withstand 110kg anyway,
most manufactorers limited both seats in double seaters to 110kg,
achieving a total allowed pilot weight of 220kg instead of only the
180kg required by JAR.

It may or may not have been so. Of course all those regulations are
interconnected, and sometimes the origin of a certain number can be
explained and sometimes it cannot.

Stefan

[Phil Collin]

Post by Stefan

Post by Phil Collin

Post by Stefan
Hmm. Then why is the required minimal maximal pilot weight (tm) for a
two seater 180kg and not 220?

According to the technical sheets on the BGA's web site ALL the two
seater's listed have a 242 Lbs limit. European tech sheets may
"differ" slightly hence your question I guess.

All two seaters I know have 110kg limit for each seat, which is the
same. But that was not the question. The question was why.
You stated that all European built two seat and single seat gliders have
a max seat load of 242 pounds because harnesses are tested to 15G
loading and 242 pounds is the maximum weight for the first point of
harness failure.
Then I stated that it was rather because JAR-22 pretty much arbtitrarily
asks for 110kg pilot weight. (And the harnesses then just are
constructed accordingly to withstand 15g.)
Then you stated that the harness thing was first and this JAR regulation
was because of the harness thing.
And then I stated that this can't be so, because if it would, two
seaters were required to be tested for 220kg pilot weight, but JAR only
asks for 180kg. So your reasoning lacks consistence.
Personally, after contemplating a bit, I assume that the 110kg limit for
single seaters was first, then harnesses were constructed accordingly to
withstand 15g, and then, because it wasn't really a structural limit for
the gliders and because those harnesses would withstand 110kg anyway,
most manufactorers limited both seats in double seaters to 110kg,
achieving a total allowed pilot weight of 220kg instead of only the
180kg required by JAR.
It may or may not have been so. Of course all those regulations are
interconnected, and sometimes the origin of a certain number can be
explained and sometimes it cannot.
Stefan

Well, now we've put that one to bed I know two things, 1, I wont
intentionally be inducing 15G loading on my European built single seater
or any of our 2 seater's and 2,any one that weighs in around 242lbs
needs to take up jogging.....

[Surfer!]

Post by Phil Collin

Post by Stefan

Post by Phil Collin

Post by Stefan
Hmm. Then why is the required minimal maximal pilot weight (tm) for
two seater 180kg and not 220?

According to the technical sheets on the BGA's web site ALL the two
seater's listed have a 242 Lbs limit. European tech sheets may
"differ" slightly hence your question I guess.

All two seaters I know have 110kg limit for each seat, which is the
same. But that was not the question. The question was why.
You stated that all European built two seat and single seat gliders
have a max seat load of 242 pounds because harnesses are tested to
15G loading and 242 pounds is the maximum weight for the first point
of harness failure.
Then I stated that it was rather because JAR-22 pretty much
arbtitrarily asks for 110kg pilot weight. (And the harnesses then just
are constructed accordingly to withstand 15g.)
Then you stated that the harness thing was first and this JAR
regulation was because of the harness thing.
And then I stated that this can't be so, because if it would, two
seaters were required to be tested for 220kg pilot weight, but JAR
only asks for 180kg. So your reasoning lacks consistence.
Personally, after contemplating a bit, I assume that the 110kg limit
for single seaters was first, then harnesses were constructed
accordingly to withstand 15g, and then, because it wasn't really a
structural limit for the gliders and because those harnesses would
withstand 110kg anyway, most manufactorers limited both seats in
double seaters to 110kg, achieving a total allowed pilot weight of
220kg instead of only the 180kg required by JAR.
It may or may not have been so. Of course all those regulations are
interconnected, and sometimes the origin of a certain number can be
explained and sometimes it cannot.
Stefan

Well, now we've put that one to bed I know two things, 1, I wont
intentionally be inducing 15G loading on my European built single
seater or any of our 2 seater's

AFAIK our gliders aren't rated for 15G (+ or -) so it sounds like the
straps are be the strongest part of them by some distance! I'm also
damn sure I personally am not rated for 15G though I realise there's a
difference between a very brief spike of G and prolonged exposure..

Post by Phil Collin
and 2,any one that weighs in around 242lbs needs to take up
jogging.....

No, we will do our knees in. And that includes our parachutes. The
limiting factor in gliders tends to be girth - if one can squeeze in one
is not too heavy! (I have my doubts about the back seat in the K21
though - I can slide around in it if not tightly strapped in, I weigh
much more than I should, and I have a big bum!)

[Phil Collin]

Post by Surfer!

Post by Phil Collin

Post by Stefan

Post by Phil Collin

Post by Stefan
Hmm. Then why is the required minimal maximal pilot weight (tm) for
two seater 180kg and not 220?

According to the technical sheets on the BGA's web site ALL the two
seater's listed have a 242 Lbs limit. European tech sheets may
"differ" slightly hence your question I guess.

All two seaters I know have 110kg limit for each seat, which is the
same. But that was not the question. The question was why.
You stated that all European built two seat and single seat gliders
have a max seat load of 242 pounds because harnesses are tested to
15G loading and 242 pounds is the maximum weight for the first point
of harness failure.
Then I stated that it was rather because JAR-22 pretty much
arbtitrarily asks for 110kg pilot weight. (And the harnesses then
just are constructed accordingly to withstand 15g.)
Then you stated that the harness thing was first and this JAR
regulation was because of the harness thing.
And then I stated that this can't be so, because if it would, two
seaters were required to be tested for 220kg pilot weight, but JAR
only asks for 180kg. So your reasoning lacks consistence.
Personally, after contemplating a bit, I assume that the 110kg limit
for single seaters was first, then harnesses were constructed
accordingly to withstand 15g, and then, because it wasn't really a
structural limit for the gliders and because those harnesses would
withstand 110kg anyway, most manufactorers limited both seats in
double seaters to 110kg, achieving a total allowed pilot weight of
220kg instead of only the 180kg required by JAR.
It may or may not have been so. Of course all those regulations are
interconnected, and sometimes the origin of a certain number can be
explained and sometimes it cannot.
Stefan

Well, now we've put that one to bed I know two things, 1, I wont
intentionally be inducing 15G loading on my European built single
seater or any of our 2 seater's

AFAIK our gliders aren't rated for 15G (+ or -) so it sounds like the
straps are be the strongest part of them by some distance!

Unless Portmoak [ I think that's where you glide from] have recently
bought a swift, then no, you wont be "pulling" 15G,[even that beauty is
only rated to +10 -7.5 ] I was referring to the max loading harnesses
are stressed to. If you're curious about the gliders you fly in terms of
their limits and tolerances you can easily check them all here: -
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/technical/datasheets.htm
I'm also

Post by Surfer!
damn sure I personally am not rated for 15G though I realise there's a
difference between a very brief spike of G and prolonged exposure..

Post by Phil Collin
and 2,any one that weighs in around 242lbs needs to take up jogging.....

No, we will do our knees in. And that includes our parachutes. The
limiting factor in gliders tends to be girth - if one can squeeze in one
is not too heavy! (I have my doubts about the back seat in the K21
though - I can slide around in it if not tightly strapped in, I weigh
much more than I should, and I have a big bum!)

Again, I wasn't being literal hence the ... after jogging, more to the
"try to do something about it", and yes as a CFI I'm fully aware the
weight includes the chute.

Bring on the flatland soaring season, and no that isn't an opening for
you to gloat about your ridge.....

Phil.

[Surfer!]

In message <45a3afec$0$8721$***@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>, Phil
Collin <***@datametrics.co.uk> writes
<snip>

Post by Phil Collin
Bring on the flatland soaring season, and no that isn't an opening for
you to gloat about your ridge.....

I don't suppose you want me to gloat about our wave either. :)

But some folks have done some great flights already this year...

http://www.bgaladder.co.uk/Enquiry.asp

[Surfer!]

In message <45a224b6$0$8757$***@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net>, Phil
Collin <***@datametrics.co.uk> writes
<snip>

Post by Phil Collin
Interesting piece of useless or useful info [you decide] All European
built two seat and single seat gliders have a max seat load of 242
pounds. Reason is that harnesses are tested to 15G loading and 242
pounds is the maximum weight for the first point of harness failure and
NOT the max weight the glider can support..

Both I guess. We had worked out the glider could support more weight,
as one or two of the chaps must be being slightly economical with the
truth to say they weigh 242 lbs with a parachute!

But it certainly explains why the max. weight for the front seat is the
same with and without someone in the back seat.